Superior Foundation Walls - anyone use them?

[Paul T]

Appreciate any insight from the great Pelican brain trust, where there is no question that can't be hotly debated! Long story short, I'm buying a new home that was built using this system - the house was built by a very reputable high end builder and the foundation itself was installed by the very first franchisee of Superior Walls here in PA, and they've been doing them for 20+ years. Based on my (admittedly) limited research it seems to me that most issues that have been encountered by folks have been due to improper installation and site prep, but that's just my read. Curious if anyone here has any real world experience, feedback or opinions...there HAS to be opinions, lol! Something tells me results will be binary on this one...love 'em or hate 'em. Feels like a apple vs pc debate coming on....have at it! And thanks in advance!

And just in case you have no idea what I'm talking about....Superior Insulation | Baltimore, Maryland and Washington DC.

[Rusty914s]

5k psi...well, that's pretty strong. Never used it nor heard of it. How long has your house been up?

[Evans, Marv]

I've never heard of it, so I don't have any "real world" experience. I did look at the website and thought it was interesting.. First, preparation and installation are key to any project, just like prepping for a good paint job is required for a car & other things. As a general rule, portions of projects or whole projects (like manufactured homes) manufactured at a central or main facility and put together at the site are more precise and better made than onsite construction. I've also never heard of 5K psi concrete, but the design and production (based on the website) look like something I would seriously consider. It looks to me to have advantages over a traditional poured foundation. I would also assume the panels meet engineering and design requirements to handle the stresses and loads. If you're thinking of having an outside inspection done before buying, you might try to find someone familiar with it.

[HardDrive]

No footing? I don't buy their 'Frank Lloyd Wright' baloney. How many freeze/thaw cycles has this system been through?

Cale Yarborough- "There ain't no substitute for cubic inches."

[GWN7]

Never heard of it, but I've seen homes built with pre cast exterior walls and those hold up well. I note they only have a 15 year warrantee. It would be nice if the warrantee was as long as the mortgage would be. I'd enquire as to the engineer approval of the system and if it is approved for all types of soils.

[Paul T]

Thanks for the comments so far...HardDrive, yeah the lack of a conventional footing is what seems to give most people concern the first time they look at this, but (in this area at least), there are quite a few high end homes that have been up for 15+ yrs with this system and no problems that I've been able to dig up. I'm not an engineer so can't really comment on the load spread vs a concrete footer, but it's an interesting system for sure. This particular house is just a couple years old.

[Taz's Master]

North-central PA. Used Superior Walls for our earth-sheltered home, I have no complaints. I have no water issues and they seem fairly energy efficient. If I were building another house, I'd not hesitate to use them again. And you are correct, installation does seem to be very important.

[CurtEgerer]

These foundation systems are fairly common and have been around for years. There are no inherent problems with them. They work as advertised. The only potential drawback I've run into is - unlike, say, a masonry block wall - they are difficult to repair if physically damaged (an unlikely situation for most) and modifications can be difficult.

Do not be concerned that there is no 'footing'. There is a footing - it's a crushed stone footing, the same as used for wood foundations, and regulated under R403 in the building code. They work just fine, maybe even better because water drains thru them.

Since the materials are only sold to manufacturer-certified contractors, your odds of having installation/workmanship problems are probably less than with a conventional foundation.

Note: I'm a forensic structural engineer and investigate building failures on a daily basis

[mepstein]

I worked new construction at sycamore crossing in oxford, pa. ~260 homes built with superior walls about 10 years ago. Haven't been to the site in years but very impressed when they were being built. Went in by crane in half a day and then could be built on immediately. Cost a little more than traditional foundation but the 5000 psi concrete was said to be waterproof without any added material. Triple seam where walls were attatched. I would build with the system if I was building new. I did see one custom built home at another community with the walls speced. Lower level was finished and looked great.

[GWN7]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

These foundation systems are fairly common and have been around for years. There are no inherent problems with them. They work as advertised. The only potential drawback I've run into is - unlike, say, a masonry block wall - they are difficult to repair if physically damaged (an unlikely situation for most) and modifications can be difficult.

Do not be concerned that there is no 'footing'. There is a footing - it's a crushed stone footing, the same as used for wood foundations, and regulated under R403 in the building code. They work just fine, maybe even better because water drains thru them.

Since the materials are only sold to manufacturer-certified contractors, your odds of having installation/workmanship problems are probably less than with a conventional foundation.

Note: I'm a forensic structural engineer and investigate building failures on a daily basis

They built a wood foundation home next to me last year. They used a conventional concrete footing which was anchored with ground hogs 25' down every 5' along the footing. Clay soil here that expands and contracts depending on the moisture in the ground. Then the wood part of the foundation was built on top of the footing with tons of gravel for drainage.

Wouldn't not having a firm base to build on be detrimental to the wall stability? Is crushed stone as good as a concrete footing for building/erecting a wall system on?

[john70t]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Do not be concerned that there is no 'footing'. There is a footing - it's a crushed stone footing, the same as used for wood foundations, and regulated under R403 in the building code. They work just fine, maybe even better because water drains thru them.

A foundation built like a tank is a desirable thing.

My only objection would be the surface grading, perimeter drainage, presence of underground springs, soil type, installation/conditions, or anything else that might compromise the integrity of the structure.

Example:
My father once built a tank house with an overkill poured concrete foundation.
Years later, a neighbor (several house down) forcefully drove in vertical beams for his new foundation.
Sitting on the second floor while this was happening, it felt like an earthquake.
Liquefaction.
The whole waterfront was swamp backfill.

[CurtEgerer]

Like I said, crushed stone footings are perfectly fine. Read IRC Chapter 4 for homework. But what do I know, I've only been investigating building failures for 30+ years

[john70t]

Yeah, but 3/4 crushed gravel is not in-failable...
1). Perhaps that side of the building has extensive tree leaf buildup because of wind.
2). Someone dumps in a bunch of soil for a perimeter garden.
=Gravel fills up within ten years.

[kach22i]

Our local Habitat for Humanity tried using a very similar foundation system years ago.

The foundations of habitat houses are typically farmed out to a contractor, but the waterproofing, tile drainage work and back-filling were often volunteer assisted to reduce costs.

In this one instance the contractor was supposed to hold-off on back filling until the first floor platform was in place, and then only bulldoze partway, leaving the fill against the foundation to be done shovel by shovel.

The contractor did not wait for anything (only kicker's holding foundation in place) and bowed in the wall real bad, necessitating an exhaustive dig-out by hand.

Concrete foundations are considered +100 year foundations, wood foundations are considered 50 year foundations, maybe at most 75 years if done correctly. At least these are the numbers I remember from 25 years ago being tossed around.

Here in Michigan we have a lot of clay soil which swells when wet, so I don't like wood foundations at all personally.

http://jbanta.wordpress.com/tag/expansive-soil/

Regions containing expansive clay soil in this state vary. If you have concerns consult an experienced geologist........

Adapted from the “Swelling Clays Map Of The Conterminous United States” by W.W. Olive, A.F. Chleborad, C.W. Frahme, Julius Schlocker, R.R. Schneider, and R.L Shuster; 1989

Red Unit contains abundant clay having high swelling potential
Blue Part of unit (generally less than 50%) consists of clay having high swelling potential
Orange Unit contains abundant clay having slight to moderate swelling potential
Green Part of unit (generally less than 50%) consists of clay having slight to moderate swelling potential
Brown Unit contains little or no swelling clay
Yellow Data insufficient to indicate clay content of unit and/or swelling potential of clay (Shown in westernmost states only)

If you have sandy soil you can get away with murder foundation wise. However there are these things call "veins" which can make you have a really bad day.

To compare soils, this is Michigan.
http://jbanta.wordpress.com/category/state-information/michigan/

Originally Posted by Paul T

limited research it seems to me that most issues that have been encountered by folks have been due to improper installation and site prep

True, but remember these flaws are typically learned after the discovery of a problem which could lurk for years undetected.

I'd expect a generous discount on such a home, something to cover a new foundation at least half-way.

You should check with your insurance company too, you don't want higher rates or other hidden costs.

[Paul T]

Really appreciate all of the thoughtful feedback, thanks guys! Thanks for the maps kach...pretty sure I'm I'm in the brown section there but kinda hard to pinpoint - could be on the edge. Hope everyone enjoys the weekend.

[GWN7]

When they excavated for the house next door they found two types of soil running thru the property. The split of the soil was right over where the house was going to be built. You could see the two types of soil with your eye. One type was a potters type of clay and the other was a crumbly type of clay. Both clays, but both different and with different building properties. That's why they went to the expense of using the ground hogs to anchor the foundation.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by GWN7

ground hogs

Do you mean "helical piers"?

[GWN7]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Do you mean "helical piers"?

New Order Enterprizes - Groundhog Anchor and Support System

Might be called different things in different areas, but this is what I first heard them called. I used a type them for my new front porch instead of drilled poured on site piles.

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

No footing? I don't buy their 'Frank Lloyd Wright' baloney. How many freeze/thaw cycles has this system been through?

Cale Yarborough- "There ain't no substitute for cubic inches."

It's one thing to enjoy the FLW prairie style, etc. but he built a whole lot of crap as well.

[azasadny]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

These foundation systems are fairly common and have been around for years. There are no inherent problems with them. They work as advertised. The only potential drawback I've run into is - unlike, say, a masonry block wall - they are difficult to repair if physically damaged (an unlikely situation for most) and modifications can be difficult.

Do not be concerned that there is no 'footing'. There is a footing - it's a crushed stone footing, the same as used for wood foundations, and regulated under R403 in the building code. They work just fine, maybe even better because water drains thru them.

Since the materials are only sold to manufacturer-certified contractors, your odds of having installation/workmanship problems are probably less than with a conventional foundation.

Note: I'm a forensic structural engineer and investigate building failures on a daily basis

This!!