How much sheet metal can you replace on a restoration vehilce?

[fastfredracing]

Before it is no longer the same car? You see people dragging longhood cars off the river bottom where there is nothing left but a silhouette of a 911, and a vin number . Now that they are worth one meelion dollars , you can be sure, that cars considered not save able in past years, are going to full on restorations
So, if you replace 85% of the sheet metal on a vehicle, is it still the same car?
Is there any legal line drawn in the sand as to how far you can go ?
Let's say you have a rusty hulk of a 1970 911s, that is complete, intact, correct numbers drivetrain, etc, but rusted really beyond what is normally considered repairable, but you have a clean perfect tub to take any sheet metal you may need from, at what point have you crossed the line?
I recently saw a pre a speedster that was going to willhoit for a total restoration, and there was really very little there to work with. It looked like he was going to have to literally replace every panel on the car.

[LakeCleElum]

Maybe Sienfeld will Chime in about his #1 911?

Seinfeld Has the First Porsche 911: Or Does He?


Comedian and noted Porsche enthusiast Jerry Seinfeld has two great icons of automotive history, the first and last air-cooled Porsche 911s. At least, he might think he does. Back in 1998 the comedian bought the first car, once owned by Ferry Porsche himself, for $400,000.
The blue 1964 Porsche was in pretty bad shape, and Seinfeld paid an additional $200,000 to have the car restored by Porsche at the Works Ein facility in Stuttgart. Apparently around the time the restoration was being done, a shell of a same year car was spotted out side the Werks facility. Both the shell of the car, and the car purchased by Seinfeld were blue. The shell had been stripped of all parts, beyond repair, with the VIN and other identification numbers, ground off the car.
Porsche refuses to say what those numbers were, but the car that was outside the facility was shredded and the removal of numbers was standard operating procedure. Was Seinfeld duped by Porsche, and given the wrong car? Does Seinfeld know about it, and is he going along with it? Of course, it could be just coincidence, but only 232 were made in 1964, and rumored that only 48 survive. A decade later the question has yet to be answered as to the authenticity of the car. It’s appears that Porsche regifted Seinfeld unfavorably.

[Nostril Cheese]

You're basically buying the VIN.

[widebody911]

I have a 1957 23-window bus. Everything about 18" down, all the way around, has been replaced. I'll have to replace some of the roof metal, too

[Shaun @ Tru6]

A lot of cars are being salvaged now that never would have just 2-3 years ago. Every single early car I've cut up would be saved today. All were T's, 3 of the 4 were Targas, some were nothing but completely stripped rollers, but still. A 72 Targa I cut up, the rear shelf and seats went to Restoration Design so they could make new molds. Happy about that.

I know (have firsthand knowledge) people are buying VINs and stitching them into better condition, more easily restorable cars.

Totally unethical in my opinion.

[mreid]

It goes on in all restorations. In fact, you can buy a brand new 60s mustang, camero, etc. body (new stampings). How do you think most of those were titled? Hemings used to have vins for sale in their classifieds. Pay a couple hundred dollars and buy a clean title. A lot of that was cleaned up with the Titles Unlimited scandal, but it still goes on as there remain states that don't require titles for older vehicles.

The question posed is irrelevant. The real question is can you legally transfer a vin from one vehicle to another and the answer is no.

[Brando]

If the factory switches VINs from a bad tub to a good one it's called a factory restoration. If you or I do it, it's called fraud.

At 50% or more sheet metal replaced I would no longer consider the car original. Especially if it had been in a collision.

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

A lot of cars are being salvaged now that never would have just 2-3 years ago. Every single early car I've cut up would be saved today. All were T's, 3 of the 4 were Targas, some were nothing but completely stripped rollers, but still. A 72 Targa I cut up, the rear shelf and seats went to Restoration Design so they could make new molds. Happy about that.

I know (have firsthand knowledge) people are buying VINs and stitching them into better condition, more easily restorable cars.

Totally unethical in my opinion.

[rwest]

Just like the hammer that's been in my family for a hundred years; we've replaced the handle and wedge a few times and the head has been replaced several times as well, but it's the same hammer great grandad swung!

Apparently the collectors can talk themselves into whatever makes them feel like they have a certain vehicle.

[nota]

just a thought I had

what if you built a carbon fiber tub for an early 911

[GWN7]

I'm reminded of several old stories....there's the Pesto tale of a car being "determined" by someone in England being a correct car but having a T's hidden serial number. Then there was the case of a guy in Hong Kong who had a car but no one had seen it in a bunch of years so someone built another just like it. Or the guy in Georgia who was selling cars without a vin but would sell you a vin for $500 more. At one time you could buy a "white" car from Porsche (without a vin) and re-vin your wrecked car.

If there is enough money involved people can create there own vin plates and have whatever car they want. Just build it and claim it's correct.

There always the guy who claims his 83 is a prototype on EBay is worth $22 million.........

[fastfredracing]

So I guess the real question I am asking is If one wanted to go about a project of this magnitude on a 911 bodied car , and still fly within the confines of the law, and maybe even attempt to retain some of the original cars provenance, how much of the original metal would you keep, and start with ? Dash , basic tub structure, and interior panels, center tunnel , windshield area, and roof, front tub section where the numbers are stamped?

[wdfifteen]

Is this a philosophical question or is it about money?

[BK911]

This question comes up pretty regularly. As far as I know, nothing is quantified. So did you do a vin swap? Or swap all the other metal around the vin? Personally I dont care as long as there is full disclosure.

[GH85Carrera]

Our club went to visit a shop in Gainesville, TX.

He rebuilt a old Ferrari race car from the 50s and took it to a concours in Italy and won first place. He does everything right there in his shop. He does the chrome work and even fabricates windshields for old rare Ferraris or Mercedes. I asked him how much of a car does he need to have to restore. He said all he needs is clear title and a large checkbook. He said it helps to have some of the original car but it is not vital. He was building a Ferrari 512 BB that was burned in a very hot garage fire. He said all the aluminum was melted and there was really nothing left that was useable. He told the client it would be way cheaper to buy a replacement but the owner loved that serial number of that car. It had some special meaning to the owner.

[pavulon]

Some guys I know removed all the Z/28 VIN plates and the VIN traceable bits and plugged them into a regular (now 6 $$ digit) Camaro. I don't know what they are telling prospective buyers but it's been for sale for over 2 years. It's a nice car but that practice would really hurt the car's value as it calls a lot into question...and I don't really care that much about "collector" value as much as value to me.

[biosurfer1]

Not the first time this question has been asked:

Ship of Theseus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Nickshu]

Who knows. As long as more surface area is original than is replaced then I'd say it's still the same car, but it's a philosophical question.

Here's my Corvair body last week, about to be sandblasted. It's gonna have a lot of swiss cheese when it's done....you can see some rust holes in front of the right rear wheel already.

[lgb240]

Heritage Trust makes replacement body shells for many British marques, so theoretically you can replace all the sheet metal and legally have the same car.

[fastfredracing]

Searching the database and calling the DMV, leaves me even more confused on this subject. It seems as if it would be a discretionary issue if the shat ever hit the fan here.
There are, however very clear definitions of "VIN tampering" .