How would you bill someone to " teach them, and help them " rebuild their motor.
 

I just finished up an SC motor job today for a customer. It was a father and son project car, and they really wanted to " help" .
The only way I could possibly do this was to work weekends, so 6 weekends later, we are done. I am not so sure that their help really sped up the process in any way. I gave them full use of my shop, all my tools, and I walked them through every step along the way, explaining each different process involved.
It was basically like a 911 engine rebuild class. I did the whole enchilada, pulled it , tore it down, measured up everything, boxed it all up , shipped out what needed machining, assembled, installed, and tuned. I made all the parts orders, and gave them shop discount, most likely saving them a bundle. I treated them very fairly .
Should the labor be discounted because they helped? Should they be charged more because, I basically showed them every trick I had in my book , gave them free roam of my shop, tools, and experience, on the weekends, and I even had to repair a few blunders made by them. Or just plain old shop rate?
Just wanted to hear how you would expect to be treated in this situation . Thanks.

It's probably worth 2X the usual labor charge, but I don't see how you can charge for more than the regular amount plus the cost of recovering from their blunders.

If a good customer, I would explain that you normally charge X to do the job but it took longer since you had to teach them a lot of things and by the hours it would have cost them Y. Tell them that since they are a valued customer, you won't charge then any additional labor rate.

If they are offended then let them walk because every time they walk through the door they will want to help so they can save money and you'll go broke working more for less.

Either way, next time they want to help tell them you are too booked up to take the extra time and you can do the job now at the regular rate or, you will call them when you have more time...

Wow, man, that sure was nice of you... are these people friends or relatives?

If I were the customer I would gladly pay you top dollar for the repairs and the education.

same here. if I was customer, I would expect to pay your normal rate, if not a little more for the "education"

We occasionally get this scenario at our shop too. We charge a straight up hourly rate. They can save some money by doing what they can by themselves. Such as cleaning parts. I just spent about six hours prepping the engine case alone for a 1976 930 that I have going at the moment. Very time consuming cleaning everything for assembly.

Been down that road too many times with other projects that I've helped people with. If you didn't agree to a cost up front- the mistake I keep making! I think you just bill them for the hours you were there working on the engine. If their help made things faster or slower it is reflected in the amount of hours.

Good luck, no good deed goes unpunished.

Yeah, it is kind of good for them to see what really goes into putting one of these together. Like you said, we spent an entire weekend cleaning just the case, cam carriers, cam boxes, valve covers , and misc parts. Cleaning and organizing is at least half the job. I sort of think the re-assembly is the easy part.

I agree with this. You should have an agreed up front price before the work started.
I think the owner of the car thought he would get a discount by their helping. Hang onto the keys until he pays the bill in full. I think he will be surprised at the bill.

Cheers,G.

It's like that old joke sign in shops:

Labor rate: $50 hr.
If you watch: $75 hr.
If you help: $100 hr. :)

Seriously, you should have had an agreement before you did all the work. Things go a lot better that way.

No, we agreed ahead of time that they would pay my shop rate for the time I spent in the beginning, they are good guys , and not looking to take advantage of me, and I am not looking to take advantage of them. They purposely bought a project car, so that they could build it together, and learn about the cars. They have done a ton of work to the car on their own, but were afraid to try to pull of an engine overhaul . I sort of just want to make sure that all parties get a fair shake. I have done a bunch of work for them before, and they know what my shop rate is.

You can say that again. If not the easy part, certainly the better part.

I currently have a BMW m10 engine out of the car to repair sloppy reassembly from the past. Valve cover, timing covers, oil pan ect...loaded with oil, gasket sealer, rtv and JB weld. Needles to say the clean up has been time consuming. I'll probably start reassembly tomorrow, the easy part.

Your in a sticky situation. Fair to me, your shop rate per hour. They should be thrilled. Not many shop owners willing to do what you did.

I had a similar situation with my wrench with my SC.

Removal of engine and tranny, take off all the easy bits, do all the usual seals, clean up and shine up, reinstall.

I had done it all before and did probably 85% of it, but he was around to make sure I didn't screw up the important parts.

I paid the regular customer price for all the parts.

I expected to pay full shop rate even though I didn't tie him up 100%, or even 30%.

I think my bill was about 1/2 or 2/3 full rate, and I was thrilled. I learned a lot and I didn't crawl around on my hands and knees in my garage.

Edit: Lots of posts while I was typing, so I'll edit to only the relevant points.


From what you posted in the first paragraph (bold) I would say you've given them a great deal already. They contracted for an engine rebuild and got hands-on, personal instruction, expert advice and supervision, shop discount on parts, plus use of tools and equipment. Anything less than shop rates would be out of the question, IMO. If, however, before hand you did not in anyway indicate that their participation would cost them more than a typical rebuild, then I would suggest you hold back on any extra charges, save the additional hours of labor, for you, incurred by their participation and the cost of correcting their mistakes.

Back in FL, an old VW shop used to have a sign posted that read something like:

"LABOR RATE $____HR. $120 IF YOU WATCH, $140 IF YOU HELP, $160 IF YOU WORKED ON IT FIRST"

Having someone stand over you as you do the rebuild is what this amounts to- it took more time because you had to hold hands...

Standard labor, but deal on parts.

rjp

First of all, how cool is this? To get to work shoulder to shoulder with someone who knows what they're doing on an air-cooled flat-6? I'd be waiting at the shop door at 6am for a chance to do this with my engine!

Anyway, Bruce Anderson (and I'm sure others) used to have engine building seminars, and they weren't free. So that's a potential cost to the customer. You came in on your days off. Personally, I like to get time and a half for that. Shouldn't there be something extra for fastfred?

BY RIGHTS, you should be able to charge one and a half time your normal shop rate, plus a bonus for the education.

WE ALL KNOW, this isn't how it works. You aren't going to want to alienate this guy. He seems like good people, otherwise you wouldn't have put up with him for 6 weekends.

In a perfect world, you'd submit an invoice for something like what I described above, then you could knock of the "fastfredracing" friends and family discount, and he would gladly pay.

How many more of these engines is he likely to build? Is he going to write a book on the experience and make a little money on the side (and gain a small measure of fame on Porsche boards, and then get too big for his britches and try to get out of tickets by using toy police badges and get indignant when the bulletin board members don't side with him?)

Fast Freddie, I guess you just have to do a gut check and figure out how you're going to feel one way or the other 2, 3, 6 months down the road when it's all water under the bridge....

I guess my take on it, is charge him a fair price, give him a break on it, but try to tactfully let him know that this isn't the normal way that you like to do business, and your time is worth as much to you as his time is to him.

[[[Bonus tip, take part of an evening, jot down what it took for you to undertake teaching a man to rebuild a flat-6, and maybe start having your own seminars and charge people to come and learn how they can rebuild an expensive motor on their own!]]]]

I will bet you dollars to donuts Freddy knew exactly what he was getting into... he said he has done work for this guy before AND it was a father son project.

I am going to guess Freddy is just one of the good guys going above and beyond to help a father and son.

I think I paid around $350 for the Jerry Woods/ Bruce Anderson class. Money well spent but only one weekend. Your knowlege is worth something, work out a deal or barter for services.

He owns a Porsche, so he's gotta be rich right?

A nice endeavor on your part. But did you think about the liability? Your tools, your shop, your parts cleaner, etc. A splash in the eye with parts cleaner, a toppled engine stand, etc, and your liability becomes a nightmare. It's unfortunate that we live in a society of litigious opportunists. Not saying they're bad guys, but let an injury occur...or worse, and your life could change.

You're a professional...nice guys or not, unless it's a properly run classroom type of training event...with proper release-of-liability forms, think twice next time.

You did a good thing.
Charge them for your time. All of it.

+1 for what Mike said. If it were me, I think I'd list everything you put into it, give it to them and ask what they think what it's worth - given they know your shop rate. I doubt you will come out on top or even on the deal. I would guess this kind of thing shouldn't be worth it to you in the future, although you seem to be a really, really nice, trustworthy, hard working guy concerned for your customers. So you might repeat.

Then I edit my original opinion: bill them for the full # of hours you worked.

Wow, I have a new level of respect for you Fred. I would say bill him what was agreed up front.

You provided a once in a lifetime experience for their father-son project and they must be very appreciative.

Also, if you're ever doing an m97 engine rebuilding class I'd like to take my 3.4 up to a 3.8 ;)

Discount for % level of added enjoyment of a teaching experience, good time, company and conversation, etc. The more you enjoyed it, the less time it was "working"

Add back for % level of frustration and irritation. The less you enjoyed it, the more time you spent "working"

But don't cut yourself very short.

Ask them what they think is fair. I love my son and an opportunity like this is priceless. I'd bet they come in higher than your shop rate. My step father is a retired class A mechanic. He NEVER charges people enough when they work with him.

I would be surprised if they tried to lowball you.

Agree.

Fred, my son got his interest in working on cars and farm equipment because of a guy like you. When I needed to rebuild the tractor that came with this place, a friend of mine with outstanding tractor knowledge helped my son and I through the process.

Three weekends and a life time of memories.

Well done.

Write up a bill for full price, and discount -if you want to.-

Bill it out like any normal overhaul. I'm sure the Pop, and son realize what they're getting for their money; a proper, and professional engine overhaul, AND direct, hands-on lessons about how to do it. That's priceless knowledge.

Our industry needs more good guys like you, Fred.

Very nice gesture for you to do this, Fred. Not surprising given the tenure of your posts here through the years.

FWIW, I would charge your normal shop rates for your hours and what you would normally charge for the parts. Include all your hours including the ones spent resolving their mistakes. The value your customer and his son received far exceeds this amount. And he will know this.

Keep up the good work, Fred. We're all very proud of you, man.

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It's alive!

:)

Charge them ..
be fair...
and realize..
you are now part of memories that are priceless..
well done..

Rika

Here is how it works.

I'm in DC today, working and running the company we own.

Last night, I ask my son, who is home for the summer, to work on the front end loader attachment on one of our small tractors. I noticed a missing bolt.

Jack does the CSI, finds that the bolt had sheared (my fault since I didn't keep the torque on the bolts), and goes to the local MF dealer (the friend I mentioned before).

Ten minutes of what to do, why it sheared and the best way (there are many, depending) to get the remains of the bolt out and Jack gets it done. Offers him new bolts for free.

Priceless stuff.

Your up front agreement is something I would jump on if I had a trusted shop to do such a thing the first time I tore a car apart. They were there, they know how many hours you had to be there.

Either bill the upfront agreed amount, or say you enjoyed it, there's no charge whatsoever, you didn't consider it work. I wouldn't feel right to get a discounted rate on work like this as a customer. Either charge all, or nothing.

I was just thinking a little earlier that kids these days don't get enough role models.

That friend of yours, Paul - demonstrated to your son how to be a good person.

"Demonstrated" being the key word....as it will remain in his memory for his lifetime.

It really is priceless.

Again - kudos to you, Fred.

But DO charge what you should.

It's only FAIR to do so.

Fred, Your a great guy and a credit to the trade
I'd charge then standard shop rate for the job

this

also, I may have to move so I am closer to Valencia, PA

I would guess, at every opportunity, this father/son will be telling everyone how great you and your shop is. How much would it cost for that kind of advertising? Beyond that...it is clear that you now have a couple of customers for life.

Perhaps you should have a regular "rebuild a 911 class" and charge participants $xxx a head to attend the class. Sounds like you have a knack for it! :)

Gm has made a business out of this sort of thing and charges more for the experience of a lifetime!

First Customer Goes Through GM

Build Your Own LS7 or LS9 Crate Engine