The skills of our younger generation. Or should I say...

[VINMAN]

Its not the use a tool thing that bothers me so much. I understand not everyone is a Norm Abrams. Especially for the guys brought up in the big city.
The lack of common sense and logic thing is what really scared me.

[JD159]

I wouldn't say it's entirely the young people's fault. It's also societal. Everything is disposable. Why learn to fix when you can replace?

I'm 23. I love fixing things. Small electronics, mowers, cars, you name it. Have the cams out of my 944 right now. Also just recently changed the drive belt, auger belt, and drive disc in my late grandfathers 25 year old snow blower. Getting it prepped for winter.

Coming from someone of the generation Vinman describes, Vinman's sentiments towards my generation have merit. My friend's are absolutely amazed at times at the variety of things I can do, like those described above. They literally cannot fix or build ANYTHING.

I was never taught any of this in school. I'm a philosophy grad. Love it. But also regret not being more versed in the STEM skills. Philosophy taught me to learn, and my computer skills help me find what I need on the internet, in forums like this. It's such an incredible, and yet underutilized tool by my generation for learning simple but useful skills.

I blame the education system.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Its not the use a tool thing that bothers me so much. I understand not everyone is a Norm Abrams. Especially for the guys brought up in the big city.
The lack of common sense and logic thing is what really scared me.

Vinman, I noticed something throughout my years' of schooling, which became more prevalent in university.

Everyone LOVED absolutes.

If I get this mark, I get into this program.
If I get into this program, I can get a good job.
If I study the last few years' exams, I'll know every question they can ask, and I'll do well on the test.
If I review every power point slide posted this semester, I'll do well.
If I answer every question on the review and know it, I'll do well.

If one of these conditions changed, like not being given a review or powerpoint slides, it was PANIC.

The reliance on absolutes creating security I felt dissuaded problem solving, logic and common sense. Not sure if it has always been like this or if it is something particular to my generation.

[Scott Douglas]

I blame a lot of it on the demise of shop classes being taught in middle- and high schools.
We had shop classes in Jr high that would put a lot of companies to shame now days.
Everything from wood, metal, electrical, printing, even architecture and in high school, auto shop.
What is offered today?

[JD159]

Scott,

Not a whole hell of a lot is offered anymore. My brother is still in HS and has never mentioned one of those courses, neither have his friends. Auto and a bit of woodworking was offered at my school but they were really stripped down.

In my opinion, it's because the skill set they teach is not pushed as much as it used to be. I was never interested in that stuff at the time, because all my teacher's pushed arts, university and "higher" education as superior. They really instilled the values of trade work as being inferior and lower on the social ladder, not even mentioning the practical uses and life skills those types of courses teach. That was/is the perception given to students. Maybe not everywhere, but that will cover most of southern Ontario.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by JD159

I Also just recently changed the drive belt, auger belt, and drive disc in my late grandfathers 25 year old snow blower. Getting it prepped for winter.

Years ago, I inherited an old single-stage snow blower that had been repaired many times before my ownership. When it broke on me, I would do the same - figure out what was wrong and fix it. Auger drive wasn't working? No issue - tightened the belt. Self-propelled system messed up? No issue - repair the chain.

I got it to the point that it would start up, spin the auger, and engage the self-propel mechanism very well. So well that once I turned around to say something to my wife, and it continued snow-blowing my driveway. At that point, I figured it was time to invest in a new snow blower, although it was fun watching that thing clear my driveway by itself...

-Z-man.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by Z-man

Years ago, I inherited an old single-stage snow blower that had been repaired many times before my ownership. When it broke on me, I would do the same - figure out what was wrong and fix it. Auger drive wasn't working? No issue - tightened the belt. Self-propelled system messed up? No issue - repair the chain.

I got it to the point that it would start up, spin the auger, and engage the self-propel mechanism very well. So well that once I turned around to say something to my wife, and it continued snow-blowing my driveway. At that point, I figured it was time to invest in a new snow blower, although it was fun watching that thing clear my driveway by itself...

-Z-man.

lmao! If it ever gets to that stage i'll know it's time to get a new snow blower.

But it really is built like a tank, literally.

[Scott Douglas]

I remember taking metal shop in high school. My sister had taken the class the year before and was one of the first females to do so. Mr. Smith said I had a tough job ahead of me as my sister had gotten the highest grade in the class and there were two females in my class. He'd demonstrate how to do a project or start one and hand the piece to one of them, half done. I had to work my butt off to get the highest grade in that class.
Mr Smith was partners in an outside firm too. They made dental molds for false teeth. Machining was so fine you couldn't see the parting lines of the mold, so he told me. He had one of his personal machines in the classroom, an old Bridgeport mill. When Bridgeport started up their museum they tried to purchase it from him as it was the best existing example of that model they could find. He wouldn't sell it to them.
Yes, shop class was not where you were supposed to find the guys going to college. I know that the teachers really enjoyed it when one of us 'college prep' students took one of their classes. I think it made all the years of the other guys worth it.
What is needed today is a course in good old common sense.

[CalPersFatCat]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Problem solving and critical thinking were out the window. Again, most of the exercises required the need for basic common sense and logic to perform them safe and correctly. Some of these guys were beyond dangerous because, they just couldn't figure stuff out on their own. I cant tell you how many times we had to jump in and stop them and say " WTF were you thinking??". Plus the fact that they are quick to toss in the towel and cannot deal well with criticism.
.

Firefighting and heavy rescue sounds hard and unsafe. It's 2014, isn't there an "App" that can do that stuff?

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by JD159

Vinman, I noticed something throughout my years' of schooling, which became more prevalent in university.

Everyone LOVED absolutes.



If one of these conditions changed, like not being given a review or powerpoint slides, it was PANIC.

The reliance on absolutes creating security I felt dissuaded problem solving, logic and common sense. Not sure if it has always been like this or if it is something particular to my generation.

Bingo ! One of the major things that we noticed.
One of the things we do in every training evolution and scenario, is to throw a monkey wrench in the works. Especially if everything is going too smoothly. After all that is reality in this line of work. Situations change, equipment breaks. Suddenly you may become another victim. Whenever we did something like that, you can see the frustration and crappy attitude they would have. Instead of stopping and rethinking the situation to fix the problem and continue the evolution. A lot of the time its a simple fix. Other times it has to be a major rework of the methods you are using at the time.

JD, I know its not all of your generation that is like that. There were 3 or 4 guys that turned out to be superstars.

[look 171]

Scott,

My passion about teaching shop was to give kids something to look forward to when the crap like Math, Lit, Physics was too much during the day. A place for them to swing a big hammer beat thing up and have a bit of fun. Build something from scratch and feel good about themselves. It turned out much to be bigger then that. I had these two girls build their parents kitchen cabinets. Some made large dressers, large picnic table and benches. I let them go and allow their imagination go wild. It was fun, then I go back to reality and to my real job after 12o'clock.

All these schools (High Schools) talk about pushing STEM, or Engineering, Architecture and all that BS and yet, the first class they take out was electronics, then mechanical and architectural drawing, then machine shops and construction. Those are the basic of all of the above. I try telling them, but they all have PhDs, so they must be (ans they are) a lot smarter them I.

[look 171]

Today, everything has a manual, there is an answer somewhere so they do not have to go through the stress of thinking about it. Simple thing like, where to buy a broom? Most of us would think, hardware store or even a Safeway. For them, there is no thinking, immediately they go and google it on that damn phone, which is like a third ball attached to them, and it tell them where and how far and even if its a good deal or not. Its a btich to having to think. The path of least resistance is human nature.

[Porchdog]

My kids always had to help with tasks around the house and I'm pretty ambitious about the tasks. My oldest always and loudly resented it. He's a senior in Engineering school now. He actually thanked me this summer - he can't believe how few hands-on skills his friends have.

I mentor the high school First Robotics team. Every fall we have two nights of training to introduce all the new members to power tools and teach safety. By the end of a build season we have most of the members competently measuring, cutting and using hand tools. Kids who stick with it 3-4 years can be really good.

My younger boy was named "pit boss" his second year. He's a natural, started Engineering school this year. Worked as a pipe fitter all summer and part time now that school is started. He helps the boys next store repair their cars.

I guess my point is - they're not all hopeless.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by look 171

All these schools (High Schools) talk about pushing STEM, or Engineering, Architecture and all that BS and yet, the first class they take out was electronics, then mechanical and architectural drawing, then machine shops and construction. Those are the basic of all of the above. I try telling them, but they all have PhDs, so they must be (ans they are) a lot smarter them I.

WTF is STEM?

I actually never took any shop classes in HS. I did take the Drafting lite class (basically an intro to drafting that was only 1 hour instead of 2). My dad had taught me pretty much everything that I needed to know about cars, and had taught me some about electrical and wood working. He had always been a bit of a gear head and at times had supplemented his income by fixing and flipping cars. My grandfather was the wood guy in the family, but Dad taught me the basics. I'm really glad that Dad taught me that stuff.

I had a buddy that took auto-shop in HS. It was the only class that he ever got a C in.

[Oh Haha]

Originally Posted by JD159

lmao! If it ever gets to that stage i'll know it's time to get a new snow blower.

But it really is built like a tank, literally.

PFFFT! You young whippersnappers with your snow blowing gizmos. I clear my driveway the old fashioned way.....by hand with a shovel and hours of back pain inducing joy.

[motion]

Just like using a GPS robs you of your mental bearings, so does using today's internet to solve problems. It makes the brain lazy and discourages the use of critical thinking to solve problems. The kids these days are just as smart as ever, but for sure, I think they're lazier, only because they have vastly superior resources compared to our younger days. Remember going to the library to read old magazines to research a purchase or solve a problem?

[look 171]

science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by Oh Haha

PFFFT! You young whippersnappers with your snow blowing gizmos. I clear my driveway the old fashioned way.....by hand with a shovel and hours of back pain inducing joy.

Before I inherited that snowblower of mine, we used evergreen limbs from the nearby forest to clear the snow. Was worth the hour trek uphill and back to make clearing the way to the stables quicker. Much easier than doing it by hand. What's a shovel?

[Oh Haha]

ZMan--I laughed at loud at that visual. Thanks.

[dyount]

Funny I just found myself teaching college age kids last week how to swing a hammer and not push it into a nail.

They keep looking at me trying to figure out the mystery of swinging a hammer and how I can drive a nail in 2 strikes.......