So my john Wayne shirt pretty much sums up the sentiments of this entire thread...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1413381733.jpg

If this is the case, what are the causes? Could it be a lack of problem solving oriented activities throughout education? You can't expect someone who has never had/learnt how to problem solve, to problem solve, unfortunately...

Where should we point the finger?

Perfect example:
A few years ago my co-worker was a university-aged fellow. We had been expecting some "peel & stick" banners for our outside signs to advise visitors we were open for the summer. I had been advised the signs had arrived on a day he was working and was surprised not to see them in place on the following day.
My curiosity was further aroused by the peel-off backing in the garbage can and, upon further checking, one of the self-sticking "Interpretive Centre Open" signs, crumpled in the recepticle beneath.
The problem? The signs had been printed as part of a larger surface (2'x3'). Rather than cut the signs out of the larger sheet, he had taken the whole sheet out, peeled off the backing and had attempted to affix the whole thing to the sign board (in a stiff wind, I might add). The result was predictable and it must have been frustrating for him to be defeated by some stick-on vinyl.
If indeed he had managed to affix the entire sheet on the sign board, it would have covered about 1/6 of the sign and obscured a good deal of the message.
Just no thought given to the process and no reasoning ability.

Be careful out there.
Les

Perfect example of what? Some kid in University had a tough time with a peel n' stick and the "generation" has the inability to problem solve and use common sense? Seriously?

Go back to EVERY generation, hand them a peel n' stick printed incorrectly like your example, and you will see that some use common sense, some do not...

Les, I think that was a case of "I don't give a siht" mentality. should they have given the correct vinyl, it would have been affixed correctly. "Not my fault".

Solving problems take effort. Its human nature to take the path of least or resistance so if info can be accessed through pushing a couple of button, or by speaking to a thin device why go through the trouble of have to think about it. Why not just enjoy the music through those goddamnheadphones and wait?

For the same reason that we refer to shop manuals, user manuals, instruction manuals. I could never have looked at my 944 and solved it's problems by thinking about it. I refer to the manual. This manual just so happens to be at the push of buttons.

If you do not have the knowledge or skills, thinking will only go so far. You need information. Information which, thanks to the generation before me, is now at the fingertips and voice commands of my generation. I just hate it when the generation that created, marketed, and sold the stuff, complains about it's prevalence and use...

Not sure if this is a joke or not?

Problem solving is what we humans do. Cavemen did it. They found a way to kill the mammoth for food or catch fish. it was a necessity, not a luxury. So for our lazy folks, not just our young men, its much easier just to wait for the instructions rather then to think about it.

When my little boy was about 8-9 months old, he dropped a ball and rolled behind some furniture. my father noticed that he just did not fallow the path of the ball, instead he crawled around the coffee table and retrieved his little ball from the other side where it was easy to get to. No one taught him that, but he figured it out.

Of course we need manuals and instructions. This is not just about the old vs the young. I am caught in between now that I am creeping toward the other side. When i was young, I hated old people. They were always btiching about something. Now I know why.

What Vinman said was the lack of common sense and the unwillingness to think about the situation and make a move on to the next step.

He figured it out because nobody solved the problem for him. If somebody solved it for him, he never would of figured it out. Now if someone usually solves his problems, he'll rarely figure anything out on his own. So when he is asked to hang up a peel and stick banner, and it requires some problem solving, it's going to end up in the garbage.

A lack of problem solving skills and an unwillingness to solve problems is not the fault of the generation in question. But that doesn't give the generation an excuse to live their lives unable and unwilling to think through a problem.

There is a big difference between looking up something in your 944 Hayes manual and asking Siri what the torque settings are on your lug bolts: you can trust your Hayes manual with about 90% certainty that it will have correct information, but the interwebs? Not so much.

Problem is - lot of information out there on the interwebs is missing something very important that your manual has: authentication. Info is put there by the same type of folks who don't want to figure things out themselves. So instead of finding an accurate answer, you often get a 'good enough' answer. In your Hayes manual, it probably states your lug bolts should be tighted to 96 ft lbs, while the internet answer is likely "As tight as you can get them with a lug wrench."

-Z

PS: I just asked Siri about the torque specs on a 944 Porsche, and the first result on the web search was a thread from the Pelican Parts 944 Forum! So much for trying to prove a point!!! :D

Z-man,

If they made a haynes manual for the 944 S that's all I would refer too! :D

I beg to differ - and go with the Words of Charlie Harper: "A 23 years old is like a good Carpenter. No Wood gets wasted".

I see the inability to problem solve nearly every time I drive in traffic - light up ahead is red, lines of stopped cars in all lanes, I back off early since there is no point in piling in at 45MPH and slamming on the brakes. I get honked at by SUV's that should be able to easily see over my '44. They are unaware, looking 3 feet in front of them and cannot understand why I slow to 35, 25, 20, 15, 10, 5, and roll at 2nd gear or first gear a little off idle it so I never come to a full stop. I've been passed over double yellows honked at, passed using a turn lane, etc. Critical thinking while driving rarely happens. Once every 2-3 months a driver stands out to me as awesome and aware.

The last time this happened was a fire truck approaching from the rear, the light is red, and there is no cross traffic, the pick up truck and I are both in the right lane, and we both dive off taking the turn to the right(running the red light), kick into the new roads left turn lane, both pull a U, and make a right turn, we both were paying attention, and we cleared a lane for the fire truck to blaze through. (My slowing down early for the red light had led to the other vehicles all making an aggressive swap to the left lane)

JD, I know it's not the fault of the generation in question. It's just something I observe. In fact, I blame my generation for creating the problem. We don't teach our kids life skills anymore. Parents only want their kids to be "high achievers" and stars. They couldn't care less if they have the capacity to function in the real world.

IMO it's the "acquiring" of the pertinent info that has changed with the advancement of the information age. Performing a "search" and the answer appearing before one's eyes takes a lot of the "journey" out of the process, and imo, that "journey" is what has filled us "old farts" with lots of info along the way...notice I didn't say "useful" info :D. For good old information assimilation, I still prefer manuals and books over a screen, but certainly, both have their benefits. Not directing this towards you (most on this board are a different breed), but how many youngins pick up a book, manual, or even use their "devices" and learn just for the sake of learning? Just my .02...YMMV.

That vinyl was cut correctly, it is always cut that way to minimize the wasted vinyl. Cut it to the actual sign dimensions and all the vinyl covering the white spaces is wasted.

And when looking at it before install, this fact should be painfully obvious.

Siri!!

what? looking thru a manual and asking Siri has a lot more in common than you think. it's just the tool for research for the time.

i dont think i am better than the kids behind me because i did my research paper flipping thru card catalogs and encyclopedias.. just because they dont know the Dewey decimal system doesnt make them the inferior researcher or paper writer.

i think times are changing and the tools available change with them accordingly. what we do with the knowledge is what separates us from the young punks. :)

kids now cant remember a phone number..hahha..because they dont have to. i get it.

Vash:

The car manual and your dewey deccimal system/library has one huge difference compared to Siri/the interwebs: the noise to information ration is reversed. As the internet continues to grow, there will be more and more noise out there -- and the danger is the notion: "Well, I read it on the internet, therefore it must be true."

Now, if you will excuse me, I have some sode can tabs to collect so I can give it to little Johnny so he gets another day of dialysis... ;)

-Z-man.

"MOST" of us have a pretty powerful computer situated right between our ears. It just takes training and "practice" to use it properly and to our advantage...YMMV. I'm afraid many "kids" don't exercise their brain power like us old farts just like they don't get out and "play ball" like we did at their age. Doesn't have to be an either/or when it comes to technology (...I retired from being a computer systems/networking geek). Vash, you'd be just fine without a "device" in your hand....I'm not so sure about some folks :D

ps: Want to absolutely cripple the good ol' US of A these days imo...disrupt the Internet :eek:

A lot of the critical thinking and problem-solving skills we're discussing (and lamenting) here are learned, IMO, via field experience, OJT, and trial-and-error. Younger generations (well, younger than me) have had progressively fewer opportunities to grow up with the kinds of field experience opportunities many of us have had.

Learning to fix things was an integral part of my youth and one of the things I did for fun. I can only compare this to Gen-Xers and 'digital natives' whose childhood recreation was likely closer to video gaming than gapping spark plugs. Less (or at least different kind of) field experience.

Probably also has something to do with which values and skills we hold in high regard and therefore want to emulate. Lots of young adult males now have no interest in -- and little regard for -- many of the 'man skills' offered in this thread. But I wanted to be just like my dad and my brother, both highly mechanically skilled and very smart. Gratuitous pic of me working on my bike with my brother working on his . . .

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1413404299.jpg

Just like when us old guys were young. Some "bridge engineer" comes along with some old funky tool that you never saw before and proceeds to humble the heck out our young selves. Only to be fondly remember decades later when you dropped that new 2.5L ss in you early 911 or built a set of walnut cabinets for the kitchen or plumbed in a new kitchen.

Ahh, remembering back to those men and women who schooled us in ways we didn't expect!:)

vary true, but I rather not have to "waste" brain power to remember phone numbers and all other unimportant things like street numbers (no, not my own house). take out the phone, no not clipped to my belt, find the number, touch and wait for a few seconds so I can yell at my wife immediately. What's not to like. That said, I only use it as a phone and look at pictures when I am away from my job sites. I am learning how to text now. The big 50 is coming around the corner in a few years, so I am training how to act like an old fart now. By 50, I will have it down pack so I can really dislike the young ins and btich like heck.

I totally "get" that aspect...I've just been gifted with a memory for remembering....wannna know the serial # of the bicycle I had 50 years ago :D. In your field however, I'm betting you don't need a "device" to do basic stuff like add fractions of inches (8 7/8 + 3 5/16 = ?) etc. It just frustrates the heck out of me to do basic math at a cash register in my head and give 'em an amount that equates to me getting back an "even" amount of change and they're clueless. Did so recently and the young cashier "still" gave me back .10 too much, and insisted upon it. Checked the receipt later, and she'd made an error entering the amount I gave her :(. That's just a trivial example of what I'm referring to when I talk about "device dependence" and not using one's own brain. Doesn't matter "most" of the time, but if they're off by a factor of a million (and don't have a clue either) then it just might. Start getting your lawn immaclulate (if it isn't already)....your day is coming soon, and we're here to help you get the "grouchy old man" routine down pat :D

Now GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

ps: Just want to be clear....this board by it's very nature attracts both young and old that aren't typical of doing the stuff I/we're ranting about...and that's a GOOD thing :)

My now 25 y/o son has rebuilt cars, made an AR-15 from parts that he had to machine. At 13 he helped me put in a garage door opener and needed zero direction from me on the tasks that he was given. On the college end of things, he's working on it.

He's also an Eagle Scout, but I get some credit for putting my toe up his butt to stick with it.

A guy I work with has been doing structured database programming in excel to create our pay requisitions. They're insane but amazing from a geek pron standpoint. Cash flow curves, fiscal year expenditure projections, GMP summary auto-population and automatic cross-checking with previous payments to ensure everything's accounted for with no "double dipping". It's all there. Crazy good. He's retiring in two years though - I've told him he should come back as a consultant for 2x the salary but I think he wants to get out of the USA entirely (did I mention he was smart?)

Think about how stupid the average person is- then think about the fact that half of the population is dumber than that...

I'm thinking that probably everyone posting in this thread is smarter than average, and most by a lot. However, cynicism may pass for wisdom, but in reality, it is the furthest thing from it. Anyone can make crass critical observations, and you don't really have to be very smart to utilize empirical observation to put down an entire generation.

It doesn't make it accurate, and it doesn't make us better than. And we really have no idea what it is like to grow up today. Consider that the city mouse and the country mouse have two different skill sets. And that story is almost 3000 years old. Socrates said that the youth of today were ruining his country 2500 years ago.

Ever hand your phone to a 12 YO and have him fix your app in less than a minute ? Cut them some slack. IMO, we are the most arrogant and messed up generation of our era, and we often do things on a massive scale with no idea about how the world will be effected. And many of us will deny that to their dying breath.

Yeah, stupid kids. You're older, You are smarter. YOU are supposed to know better.

You. Not the kids... In times of great need, SOME will rise to the calling. Some will concentrate on making a killing, and some will just survive, or die trying.

It has always been so. We stand on the shoulders of the Great, and complain about the view. And school taxes. We complain about those too. Teach kids about values, teach kids to think for themselves, and they will figure it out.

The only problem we have today is that you really have to have the memories of a 100 YO to have seen all the changes we are now experiencing, and have the experience to understand where it might be taking us. Most will still lack the courage and the vision.

BUT IT'S THOSE STUPID KIDS !!!!

Your whole post was spot on imo, and I'm sure I'm guilty but I SURE don't think the younger generation is stupid by any means. I do think the part of your post I quoted above is sorely lacking from my perspective however. Our generation has failed miserably when it comes to this aspect imo. We (as a society) don't teach kids to think for themselves for the most part anymore...but that's just my perspective. They can hit fastballs further than any generation gone before, but many simply can't hit a curveball for crap....that's just great until life starts feeding 'em curveballs :p

Tonight I took the opportunity to show my son how to make a template, transfer it to wood and cut it on the table saw. I needed to make a new floor for a tool chest that my neighbor gave me today.

He feigned interest but hopefully he will be able to help on bigger projects in the future based on the basics. Measure 12 times, cut once. A woodworker I am not but the piece fits and works as intended.:D

This thread defines:
Why my 18 year old brother, who is a gifted welder...just walked out of a high school classroom and into a career at $64k, full benefits, profit sharing, vaca/sick time, and all the overtime available anyone would want.

...and...

Why my sister-in-law spent $325k of daddy's money to get a Master's in Social Work...and is now a bar tender...

My dad was a watch maker by trade ( Germany ) and a machinist ( self taught ) when he came to the states. My older brother and I were taught from an early age to be DIYers regardless of what the task was. I cherish that hands on training we were taught. I took various shop classes in high school to gain additional knowledge. I am not a tradesman for my occupation but I enjoy doing things myself. When my two boys came along I tried to instill that same basic knowledge/work ethic. My oldest is an avid DIYer my youngest can barely add oil to his car. The youngest has zero interest in the DIY philosophy but does have a good work ethic. My boys are just different from each other but that's OK. Love them the same. Not everyone has the knack/desire to be hands on and I don't think that has changed over the years. Heck I knew guys in H.S. that couldn't pump their own gas that's why they used full service pumps !

i just found out that the old retired guy that school me on all things civil eng, did not graduate from college..only a few JC classes. he is self taught.

he took the EIT..passed..then because of his age and the rules back then..he qualified for the PE by work experience (not sure if this is an option anymore) and passed!! he is a PE, without a degree!!

he wants to go back to college, but i think he would know more than most professors. gah.. it was humbling.

Well it's not likely that she would of become a welder...

I wouldn't discredit her Master's degree, that took a lot of work. The sad part is that after all that work, schooling, and money, she does not have a rewarding position. That type of a program is pushed throughout school. Then reality kicks in and you can't find a job, and you wonder why your whole life all you heard was "work hard in school". I have a job, because I'm fortunate, many of my peers are not, despite lots and lots of hard work, and "daddy's money". It's also not her fault that a Master's in social work costs a whopping 325k, blame the people who run the show and jack up the prices for people without jobs because they want daddy's money.

When I was in highschool at 14 - 17 ish and university at 18 - 22, for most of those years, what the hell did I know about which programs will actually land me a job? The universities and high schools rant and rave about getting a degree and working hard in school, but don't really inform you as to what programs yield employment.

We are at the age of fancy degrees. Now, that said, I think its necessary to weed out the worthless fakes. House I grew up, next door neighbor's father was the engineer for the water power and was one the lead engineer for the aqueduct that are stealing water from you guy up north. He too was self taught without degrees, just like your buddy.

We are so caught up on the whole hands-on and DIY, while I am one myself, my father could not tighten up a faucet if it leaked. He did fine jewelry work and did nothing around the house, I did all that when i old enough because I was curious and it was fun. He instilled good work ethics and taught us how to problem solve should the problem arise and take charge of our situations. The basic survival and employable skills. They also make sure we look people in the eye and give a firm hand shake since my sister an I were about 3 days old. My wife and I are trying to do the same thing to our boys. Dang, it is not easy. I don't know how they did all this while worked many hours running a business and kept things together.

There is a lot of this thread that is ironic - complaining about information technology, on the internet, on a site known for the information passed between and among users to help them DIY their German cars. :) In that vein, I am very thankful that PP is here, so I have a place on the internet to look up the tricks on doing a project on my car. There is no way I could even be a checkbook mechanic here - there is nobody qualified to work on my car within 100 miles.

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I grew up on a farm, and Dad taught both my brother and I to fix and make do. I screwed up the "fix" part plenty of times, and Dad never hesitated to loudly announce his displeasure at having to fix my mistakes. My welding still looks like home-made sin, but on farm implements, you don't get any prizes for how great it looks. If the weld does the job, how it looks is not important. Still, I look at the welds on my bicycles and marvel at how well skilled hands can do that kind of work. It moves into the realm of art, IMO.

I think there are several things going wrong in the schools that discourage the sort of schooling some of us had. First, there is the idea that schools are about the Three Rs, and that's it. Guess what, when it comes time to cut something from the budget, what gets cut? Not math. Not English courses. Not science courses. Shop. Art. Music. All that stuff gets the axe. While my brother and I were "lucky" to have lived in a shop class (a farm is a full-time shop class, I'll tell you what), our schools had metal shop, wood shop and auto shop. And drafting, and music and art (painting and ceramics). We had tons of opportunity to explore all of our talents. Now, my high school has closed all the shop classes, and those building have been put to use as additional classrooms. In addition to focusing on the Three Rs, schools have become less process-oriented and more goal-oriented. Graduation rates and standardized tests and performance evaluations - if schooling were a business, these metrics for evaluation might make sense. But learning is a not inherently goal-based. Education is a process. We learn a process, then adapt it to the situation. If all you learn is to seek a goal, then any wrinkle in the process prevents the goal.

I chuckle a little at the disdain for information devices. I took German in high school. Four years. At first, it was to fulfill a requirement, then I found I liked the structure of the language. THEN I found that a lot of the original organic chemistry research articles were in German. That propelled me to my fourth year of German, and one in college. Looking up those original paper articles in the stacks of college libraries was VERY time-consuming, and many of the articles I needed were not available. I was, however, quite popular in my organic chemistry class. I was the only one who could freely translate the text into English. Boy, but looking up the words I didn't know in my German-English dictionary was a serious chore as well. All that time wasted - while the arts guys were chasing tail, I was in the dusty stacks reading German...

That's why I like the internet. Looking up that stuff is so much easier now. Not having to pore through volume after volume of paper material to find the reaction diagram I need? And have it translated into English? I don't see the value in making any chemistry student play with card catalogs and paper articles in a foreign language. I don't think I benefited much from the experience, except that I got to be close to a particular organic chemistry student that caught my eye. She might have been interested in German text, but upon reflection, I don't think so. :)

In any case, some of the information revolution has been an absolute boon to those of us that have to wade through thousands of pages of text a year. Not spending it in the windowless basement of a university library means more time to actually do work. I don't know the answer to how to make public schools teach more process and less toward goals. That would require that those who made the schools go that way in the first place decide they were wrong to do it that way. GLWT.

:D....Methinks maybe you've misinterpreted my "rants" about such devices. In the hands of some folks (like those posting on this thread), they are absolutely powerful tools, but for many, "devices" are simply a "crutch" that causes them to never have to learn how to "walk" on there own...YMMV. Believe me...I spent my corporate career mastering the most leading/bleeding edge state-of-the-art computers and sophisticated networking devices. Can't go "looking something up" when the info isn't out there to look up yet ;). Some folks "think outside the orb" and have the ability to solve problems (many times, problems NEVER seen before), and some don't because they never LEARNED how to. It's a "gift" that has to be developed imo, and that's where my rants about "devices" originated from. Great post btw, just thought I'd clarify where I was coming from...

I completely understand the "crutch" aspect. I am one of those crutch-borne warriors. Without the crutch of the internet, there is no way I could own a 911. I'll walk that back a little. I *could* own one, if I had access to the paper with the torque and clearance specs. But then there would be the problem of mail order parts (do any of you guys remember paper catalogs and actually sending order forms in the mail? LMAO, those were the days). Troubleshooting problems is actually a skill different from the ability to swing a wrench. I have found that there are very few people with the mindset of how to carefully eliminate causes and methodically find solutions. While it is a skill that can be taught, some folks are just much better at it than others. The analytical mindset is not one that can be fully trained, IME. You have to have that kind of mind to begin with. Those that have it can figure stuff out, even without specific training. Those who don't have it can troubleshoot to a certain point, then get stuck. I am one of the lucky ones. I have always been able to troubleshoot, from as far back as I can remember. And nobody ever taught me how to do it. I have always been the one to teach it.

I understand how devices can be a crutch. For some kids, without their smart device, they would not know anything. In the case of a very powerful solar storm, these folks would have zero value, and just be mouths to feed. Those of us who grew up on paper and taking stuff apart to figure out how it worked? We will be gods among men! :)

One of the thing I like to do with my trainees in fire training is to invoke Murphy's Law when possible. Because that's reality. We have a fantastic device called a TIC (Thermal Imaging Camera). lets you see victims, heat, fire,tin the dark and through smoke. Probably one of the greatest tools ever to be introduced into the fire service.
While I have them do a search in a smoke filled building, ( especially if they purposely lose contact with a wall) I'll conveniently rip the camera out of their hands or reach down and pop open the battery cover so it falls out. I want to see how they react. I want to see if they go back to the basics, and continue the search manually or depending on the situation, get themselves out of the structure. Or if they freak out and panic. Of course most of the ones that panic, I immediately "kill them".
When we get outside, they are usually pissed at me that I did that. But I not so nicely explain to them that they depended on and placed their lives on a piece of electronics that has the possibility to malfunction. Instead of relying on their brain and the simple proven basics that they were taught.

I tried in an earlier post to describe what you wrote with much more clarity.

My wife and I bought our farm pretty much because we wanted to raise our kids in the environment we were both raised in.

That, and we were pretty much "figure it out on your own" (within limits) parents.

I can tell you what works, even with my Daughter who is a great problem solver: I made her identify every fluid reservoir under the hood of her car, check oil and txmsn fluid, then change a tire; not pretend to change a tire: change it, before I let her solo in her car.

She also had to help with the oil/filter/air filter changes. I do all the routine maintenance on our cars so it is best she helped.

She had a choice, a very easy one in my opinion. She was always ready to help.