Open Carry
 

A series of bills are being prepared for the super short Texas legislative session. Texas was one of the first states to limit firearms. Our prohibitions on "city" open carry, and concealing weapons, date back to the 1870's. NY States Sullivan act came into effect 40 years later in 1911.

At present, we have CHL - Concealed Handgun License. Under consideration are a few different kinds of open carry.

1. Licensed Open Carry. Basically converting the CHL to a LTC (License to carry). You still have to do the training and get a license, but you can openly or concealed carry.

2. Constitutional Carry. Anyone in the state who is legally allowed to own a firearm may openly carry a firearm. This is presently the law with rifles and shotguns. It would simply extend it to handguns.

In Texas, you already are allowed to do what you want on your own or rented property. You are allowed to have a firearm/handgun in/on your vehicle.

What are your feelings on these two options?

I put this in OT on purpose, so let us please not PARF it up. SmileWavy

We have open carry in Missouri, subject to various city ordinances that may prohibit open carry. My city allows it. I can't say as I have ever seen anyone open carry here as I think the general opinion is that it would just freak everyone out. I carry concealed.

When I live in Sierra Vista, AZ you saw lots of people open carry. And down there no one got worked up over it.

In Oklahoma if you have a CHL you can open carry. They allowed that a couple of years ago. I have yet to see anyone open carrying except cops and one private detective.

When they first changed the law some people proclaimed it would be like the old west with everyone slinging a gun on their hips. For a few days the paper showed pictures of a few folks that did. It all went back to normal. It has not been an issue.

similar bills were around during the last session..
and then didn't go anywhere..
IIRC...they never even got brought up for a vote..
Texas is gun friendly sure..
but we don't need this.

Rika

I would support a measure that allows anyone who is legally allowed to own a firearm to carry it in any safe manner, provided that the person also has some prescribed level of training in the proper use of the firearm.

Kurt mentioned that "no one got worked up over it" down in AZ.
I think that is a big issue anywhere - transitioning people to feel comfortable around it.

Part of the process will involve letting everyone know that those who carry have been through a background check to weed out the felons, and have been through some sort of training. It would be great if we could assure everyone that those who carry have some level of self restraint. Nobody wants gunplay over a fender-bender, etc.

In Va we have open carry and it isn't an issue. From my personal experience I open carry when I am hiking, or to/from the range and have never had any trouble. I have gotten some strange looks rolling into a store to get a snack and drinks on the way to do some shooting but nothing more. From the standpoint of law enforcement I am sure they would much rather know I have a spoon on my side as opposed to wondering. There are two sides to every coin and I for one support the open carry side. If a person wants to go CCW then they can take that extra step

CA has no-carry -- I mean, blessed carry -- I mean, concealed carry with a golden permission slip.

We used to have Open Carry until the legislature thought "Is too scurry!"

The best route any state can go is Constitutional Carry. But to Rika's point, will these measures go anywhere?

Everything is basically already allowed, except open carry for handguns. Without a license, you can keep a pistol or revolver in your car. If every traffic accident were going to be a shoot out, it would already have happened.

It is funny, if I saw someone open carry right now, I would probably assume they were an off duty cop. I wouldn't freak out. I think it will freak out the police more than regular people.

If a bunch of people do start to open carry, I expect the result will be more places posting no firearms. Which is fine with me, since I these places are also saying they do not want my business.

Brando: We have VERY different leadership in the Senate (Dan Patrick) and the House for this term. The bills will be some of the first ones taken up. The Lt. Governor actually is the position of power in Texas. He controls the legislation process.

Ya, try that in Fairfax or Arlington and see how that works out for you. You will be harassed by the police, even though they won't charge you. OC is not a good idea in NoVA. CCW is fine there and I never got any hassle from the cops who pulled me over and I told about it.

The issue with TX is that they need to just repeal the ban and penalties on OC; just make the law silent on the matter. I always carry in the small of my back. If I bend down to tie my shoe and the tail of my shirt rides up and exposes the butt of my pistol, in TX that is a FELONY. That's insane! It might only be a class D felony and it's probably only enforced if you stick around to argue about it and get mouthy with the responding officers. But it needs to go away.

I kind of wish we had laws that said you can do anything you want as long as you're not a jerk about it and it doesn't hurt anyone. I can OC an AR while wearing full camies past a children's playground. It's legal. But it'd be a real d'bag move to purposely upset folks. I think Nostatic coined the crimes "attempted douchbaggery" and "felony asshattery." We need those on the books with harsh penalties.

Rick, that is a Class A Misdemeanor, unless in an establishment that sell alcohol.

The main reason the law was changed here was the old law said CC was OK with a license but it had to be concealed and if someone got a glimpse of the spoon it was illegal. Now the CC does not go to jail if he slips up and someone else makes a visual on the spoon.

One of my friends always carries. He even teaches classes to get a license. He said he open carried for a few days because he felt he wanted to. Then he realized it was easier to go back to CC.

and that's why we don't need this..
Texas has more than their share of LA Law graduates..
I do agree with Rick on the 'flash' issue..

Red..this leadership is NO different than in the past..

Rika

Rika, David Dewhurst is gone.

you can thank you favorite deity..
POS he was..
I know that some changes occurred...
but many of the supposed R's are sheep at the end of the day..
Cornyn comes to mind..

Rika

NOVA and I don't get along and on the rare occasion I do manage to soil my boots up there it is to visit friends, and then I always CC just because I don't want to get shaken down by the man.
That place is a 5hit hole and should be bulldozed

Dan Patrick used to be the Senator from my district. Good guy and know him personally. He will get it done.

Back on Topic!

How tough would it be to transfer it to the Washington DC?

http://lincolncottage.files.wordpres...62-dc-plan.jpg

What is the difference from a practical standpoint between the two categories? It sounds like you open carry a piece either way, but the former requires more training.

Depends on clothing and season. Sort of hard to OC in cold weather clothing. If I OC it's usually only on the bike or on horseback, where it'd be very hard to draw from concealment because of riding gear, even if dismounted. I see OC here fairly regularly. Some folks just refuse to get a CCW because they see it as a gov't. permission slip. Until about four yrs. ago you could not CCW here without a permit, but OC was fine. So a lot of folks did that. Some just don't want to change. I live in horse country, so you see a lot of folks wearing riding gear at a feed and seed place or parts stores OC'ing. No big deal around here and sometimes it's easier than R&R'ing the holster each time to get in and out of the car.

Red, did that penatly change recently? I was last in TX about five yrs. ago and I was very conscious of keeping it concealed when out and about. I also don't know how anyone can know how much of a restaurant's revenue comes from booze vs. food sales if they sell both.

This thread is a perfect example why a national reciprocity law for carry (CCW or OC) makes sense. Get that going, and states which essentially have no carry laws (like CA and NJ) would be forced to comply, based on the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

National reciprocity would also help do away with the confusing state-to-state laws that turn law-abiding citizens into felons.

Case in point: Sheneen Allen is a lady who is a Philly, PA resident who got a CCW to protect herself after she was mugged three times. She travelled to NJ not knowing that her CCW license was not honored in NJ, since NJ has no reciprocity with any other state for CCW. She was carrying while driving (perfectly legal in PA, but a third degree felony in NJ) when she was stopped for a traffic violation. She told the officer that she was carrying (which is what you are supposed to do when carrying in 'free' states). The officer arrested her on the spot, and she was facing a mandatory 3.5 year sentence with no eligibility for parole. At first, pre-trial intervention was denied, but finally a top 2nd amendment lawyer (Evan Nappen) was able to get pre-trial intervention and the case was dropped. But due to this incident, Ms. Allen lost her nursing license and now has financial issues.

According to the 2nd Amendment, we have a right to keep and bear arms. It should not matter how we do this (CCW or OC), or where we do this (AZ, NJ, CA, TX..etc). but the rules and regulations that pertain to the 2nd Amendment should be the same across our great nation.

Ok - I'll get off my soapbox now,
-Z-man.

No, it's always been that way. And for Open Carry, the Felony is for if they sell alcohol at all, retail or restaurant.

As far as whether a restaurant allows CHL, they have a "51%" sign.

CHL allowed

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1418750105.jpg

CHL not Allowed

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1418750123.jpg

Stupid and meaningless

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1418750151.gif

Correct sign for restricting firearms on premises (must be English Spanish and high contrast Red on White, Black on White or White on Black).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1418750358.jpg

And improper (and can be ignored) sign

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1418750390.jpg

James - any chance there is a list of businesses that display the 30.06 sign? No need to patronize them.

Wow. Signs are a pain in the ass and I suspect would do more harm than good for prosecutor. We also have a myriad of those signs and only one of them, when placed in the precise location prescribed by law constitutes "reasonable notice." Most are meaningless. Even my workplace has a sign at the gates to the parking lot stating no guns and citing a long-since repealed statute number. Doesn't harm them, since most folks don't know any better and will obey it. But it has no force of law at all anymore.

The first two are from the TABC, Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission and are simply signs any business selling alcohol has to put up. Pretty sure TABC supplies the signs.

The 30.06 signs are if a business wants to restrict carry. They have to be PRECISE or they carry no weight of law. And the charge is simple "trespassing". And I have NEVER heard of it being prosecuted. Typically, if there was an issue, the police would just ask you to leave. Of course, somehow they have to KNOW you have a firearm...

I expect 30.06 will be more likely enforced for Open Carry than anything else. And possibly push more businesses to put up the signs.

Meh. I think its probably best people don't open carry. It could scare people, and there's the risk that a kid/nut jobs could reach for the gun.

My only concern is that once you get a CCW you are then on the list of folks who for sure have weapons around. That would be the last thing I would want to be on especially in some states where the legislature or LE are in the mood to dis-arm the public no matter what the 2nd amendment says.

On the other hand, should something difficult happen and a person be forced to defend themselves, having the training sure would help you legally (Rot 911 hope you as a lawyer could chime in here) as otherwise someone is going to get you in court and say "well you did not have the CCW so how did you know what the law allows you to do?"

Guess someone could take the CCW course yet not ever file the paperwork (in a state like Arizona with open carry with no CCW) and cover both bases...

I would fear the police over reacting to an open-carry situation more than regular people. A couple of times a year we have someone arrested because the police do not understand that open carry of a rifle is legal in Texas. Usually ends badly for the police departments and cities, once the person lawyers up.

Joe,

Since we had a discontinuity in firearm ownership in many families, I would prefer that most new owners take a basic firearm safety course. No matter what, the gun shop should encourage it.

The problem is the coercion...

I expect that I will continue to conceal, even if open carry becomes legal.

Counterpoint: I would rather be known as the guy who has a spoon vs. the guy who doesn't. LE may be interested in the 'who has a gun' list, but criminals and felons are more interested in the 'who DOESN'T have a gun' list.

I agree - training is essential in the proper handling and use of firearms. However, I believe training should always and ONLY be voluntary, and as you state, strongly encouraged by gun shops and ranges. When I purchased my first spoon, I took two NRA safety courses before I made it go bang. Plus snap-cap training, plus reading and watching safety videos. Every spoon owner should commit to memory the 4 basic safety rules of guns (Treat every gun as if it were loaded, finger off the trigger until you acquire your target, don't point the gun at anything you don't want to destroy, mind your target and what is behind it.)

If training becomes mandatory, that implies a certification process must be done for firearm ownership. Who would create and certify the test? The government, of course. So, it is foreseeable that the training would require the applicant to take a 1000 question test with a passing grade of 990 correct answers. Besides, the Second Amendment says "right to keep and bear arms" it doesn't say "right to keep and bear arms as long as you get a 99% on the gun test."

-Z-man.

Same for NC. I think I've seen just one person open carry a pistol a few years ago over the past decades...folks just don't open carry here. But it IS our right...I remember clearly back in '68 after MLK was shot and the shtf....as a kid sitting in a BBQ joint on Main St, watching half the folks walking by either with a long gun or pistol strapped on. I've never felt the need nor desire to carry concealed or otherwise...that's just me. Nor do I want more idiots with poor decision making skills carrying either....like a few well publicized cases in FL the past few years either. Having said that....I KNOW Kurt has a different opinion and EXPERIENCE....and I respect that too ;). Too each their own....

I automatically assume people who open carry are nutjobs. Do you really need that thing at the restaurant?

The last guy I say open carrying was at least 150 pounds overweight. Seems he is drastically overestimating his chances of dying at the hands of a terrorist while ignoring what's actually, immanently going to kill him.

Just like the doomsday preppers who think the zombies are coming to get them. They should stop playing with guns and hit the treadmill.

there are effectively no restrictions on open or concealed carry in my state. no permit is needed. it is perfectly normal to be in line at the grocery store with someone who has a weapon on their hip. i just assume that everyone has a gun in the truck.


in a weird bit of reasoning the state does offer a permit. take a course, pay a small fee and it's yours. the only reason i can see to get one is for reciprocity with somewhere else.

No, prepping is for the guys who have no justification for owning a tomahawk but oh wait it might save your life better get two.

Not sure what one's weight or appearance have to do with their mental fitness to carry a gun. By that standard, plenty of cops should be prohibited possessors. Never seen OC in a restaurant other than a fast food place, since OC is a no no here if alcohol is sold for consumption. Rest assured, though, lots of people CCW around you and you'll never know it. I don't think I've ever not CCW'ed while in CO and I look pretty clean and innocent.

Same here in PA.

An ex-coworker of mine lives on 10 or 20 acres of land 80 or 90 miles up 59 from Houston. He open carries on his land. He's told me the story about being out and about on his property one day, jumping in the truck to run some errands, and realizing after he'd just come out of a bank branch that he'd been open carrying the whole time. He'd forgotten and no one had looked twice or said a word. He's a short guy that wears a white cowboy hat. He's assuming anyone that noticed just thought that he was a cop or something.

I honestly just don't get the need or want to open carry. I do have a permit to CC, competed at one point in IPSC and as well I'm a very long term martial artist.
I think of carrying the same way as being a martial artist. Why at any point would anyone let their opponent know that they are capable of protecting themselves?? Do you not eliminate what advantage you have by "show and tell".
I carry quite often and the only time you'd know is the last moment when I'm throwing lead.

Now this whole 2nd amendment thing.... Although in my opinion you have every right to protect your home from invasion it does not (again opinion) give anyone the right to carry a firearm. In my opinion, if you are capable of getting a CC permit, well trained in not only firing but also basic combat I've got no issue.
Your typical open carry person could easily be overwhelmed,gun taken, and fired upon before they had the slightest chance to respond or would walk around like it's range time no thinking of firing from cover.

The whole traveling with firearms thing should be easier than it is but it's a gun owners responsibility to not go to NJ or DE for that matter. Or, feel free to carry all you want taking the risk if need be

James, sorry and for most folks would totally agree. I am coming from the standpoint where about 95% of my friends are Vets and have been trained in the military how to work with and handle a weapon safely.

People who do not have a military background for sure need some basic training...