Dogs, Fear and Guns

[bivenator]

A story in Houston has the trifecta for OT discussion.

A sad tale of a man and his family going to a dog park. At the dog park there was a dust-up between the two dogs and the man shot the other dog. He said he was in fear for his family and himself.

So PPOT, what do you think about this one.

Joseph Potts feared for his wife's and dogs' safety -- as well as his own -- when he emptied three rounds from a Glock 9-mm into a dog at a Clear Lake-area dog park January 25, according to a Harris County Sheriff's Office report

UPDATED Man Shoots, Kills Dog at Dog Park, Because...Texas | Houston Press

[Rikao4]

charge him...
and take his permit...

Rika

[Z-man]

unnecessary use of deadly force. Potts had many other options at his disposal. Drawing a firearm should only be done when all other avenues of resolution have been exhausted. He had already successfully separated the two dogs by kicking the offending dog -- he could have continued to do so while moving his dog out of the dog run area.

Dogs at dog parks will wrestle and fight. And sometimes it can get vicious. But that doesn't give someone the right to kill a dog.

-Z

[scottmandue]

I scanned the article and tough call, one of those "you would have to be there" things... hard to tell how "aggressive" the pit bull was getting.
Also not sure how impartial the article is with the banner "bring justice to diesel" (pit bull was named diesel).
I know it was a dog park and the idea of a dog park is to let your dogs run free... however I feel if you are the custodian of a pit bull you should stay in close proximity to the dog at all times.
Just my two cents.

[Rusty914s]

The whole thing stinks, from the paranoid crazy having to carry a firearm everywhere to the owner of a dog that's known for aggressiveness.

Shoot the guy with the gun and let's call it the day.

[JavaBrewer]

You take your chances at dog parks. Dogs start running around and the pack mentality really takes hold. I have seen very timid dogs become much more assertive in that situation. Interesting to watch really. Lucky for us our dog park is segregated by size, under 40 in one area and over 40 into another. Our Scout (Maltipoo) weighs no more than 20 lbs soaking wet. Some owners are very responsible and 'manage' their dogs while others will sit there and laugh as their dog terrorizes the others.

Like most here I would have gathered my dog and left the area. Pulling and using a gun is flat out ridiculous. Lots of videos of Pit Bulls going sideways in a hurry so I understand the concern. That said the guy should face some sort of penalty for sure and perhaps lose his gun till he completes some anger management sessions.

[javadog]

I'd like to see the guy convicted of some sort of felony, so he'd be prevented from owning a gun in the future. I don't care what the other dog was, he wasn't justified in shooting it. The fact that he claimed he was also in fear for his own safety is just horse****.

If you can't deal with a looming dog fight (it didn't appear from the article that the fight was actually on when he shot the dog), you shouldn't own a dog.

I'd never take a dog to a dog park anyway. It's generally a really bad idea. Apart from the potential problems from idiot dog owners and their inability to keep their dogs under control, it's a really fine place to transmit diseases from one dog to another.

JR

[Rick Lee]

In AZ you can't shoot a dog that's attacking anything but another human. If your neighbor's unleashed and unfenced rotweiler comes after your poodle while walking it on a leash around the neighborhood, you can't shoot the rotweiler, even though he's unleashed and not on his property. You definitely go to a dog park at your own risk. Though perhaps the perp in this TX case will be able to cite the countless instances of cops shooting harmless dogs with impunity as part of his defense.

[john70t]

My dog once lost a few drops of blood to a larger dog, back when he was more possessive of his tennis ball. I didn't see it but there was no-harm-no-foul afterwards. Both dogs were separated and the other owner left. That dog was later aggressive towards another one.

I've seen a few scraps at our park, but most were just the gradual ramping-up situations where neither would give way.
The owners there are very good and will separate or "time out" their pups before this even starts to happen.
And that's the key.
You watch them closely and correct bad behavior immediately.

I suspect in that Tx incident there was a good 10 minutes beforehand where neither owner did anything to prevent a fight.

There are plenty of dogs who start out with really bad manners and later turn into lushes.
Big or small, they all have the same mix in their brains.
That socialization/play instinct is much stronger than the fight instinct in 99% of canines.

[scottmandue]

Let me say I feel most of us are animal lovers and hate to see a dog get shot.
However there is a lot more to this story than can be conveyed by the few paragraphs we have read.
Guy being threatened by pit bull "I was afraid for my life."
Owner of pit bull "he was a sweet dog and wouldn't hurt anyone."

Let me also say that back in the day we took our dogs to the park and threw the ball with no problems... however these were not 'dog parks' San Pedro is blessed with some huge green areas so at that time it was no problem finding an section of lawn with no people or dogs.

I also question the wisdom of 'dog parks', I understand the desire to let your dog run free (see above) but the way fluffy behaves in the living room and the way fluffy will act running free with a bunch of other random dogs can be two very different situations

[techweenie]

Guns are a 'response amplifier.' The man was justified in using other means to rescue his dog, but it sounds like kicking the other dog just escalated the situation (predictable outcome).

Typically the shooter was 'fearful' and the dog owner's view is that his dog was 'sweet.' In so many shooting stories lately, video has shown the shooter's account overblown. Absent video, it's really hard to judge.

[john70t]

Last week a girl brought two stout male pit bulls to the park, and one pit ended up going after another dog.
Sounds like the classic situation, right?

Except both of these pit bulls were lushes. Waggy tails. Big smiles. Kissy face greetings. The more active male would roll on his back for smaller dogs and liked to play chase in the group.

The other dog was not aggressive, per se, but he was very outgoing and a bit of a devious shyster.
He would go around picking off other dogs who weren't aware and then run away.

They had been playing together for half an hour or so and then the park started filling up
Lots of excitement. Too much excitement.
The other dog started playing harder and harder and I guess the male pit had enough at some point.

The thing was....the pit didn't draw blood even after catching the shyster several times.
Big scary bark. That's it.
About a 2/10 to 4/10 on the effort scale.

That pit was well socialized early, and a good dog.
It was the fault of preventable circumstance by owners.

[Rick V]

Someone shoots one of my critters and they had better be ready for return fire, this whole shoot first attitude gives the rest of us gun owners a bad name.

[porsche4life]

I'd like to see the guy convicted of some sort of felony, so he'd be prevented from owning a gun in the future. I don't care what the other dog was, he wasn't justified in shooting it. The fact that he claimed he was also in fear for his own safety is just horse****.

JR

More than a few CCW holders are under the belief that utter that statement is the get out of jail free card for a shoot. As this case proves, it shouldn't be and this guy is just another asshat with a CCW and an itchy trigger finger.

[ckelly78z]

I'm so glad I don't have to deal with dog parks, I open up the front door, and let my Aussie out for an hour or two whether i'm in the yard or not. He has 10 acres to explore and patrol, but will come instantly when I call him.

Our previous aussie a few years back was a good dog, and stayed close to home and could be trusted by himself for long periods of time. The problem was, he was too friendly and someone was able to steal him out of our yard. I came home from work and let him out. 15 miutes later, I went out to get the mail and called him, and he never came. It turns out several other dogs had disappeared locally that day as well. If I had seen someone taking my dog, i'm afraid there would have been gunfire that day.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

More than a few CCW holders are under the belief that utter that statement is the get out of jail free card for a shoot. As this case proves, it shouldn't be and this guy is just another asshat with a CCW and an itchy trigger finger.

Yeah, I know. My 5-5, 130 pound wife can break up a fight with a pit bull and another dog of similar size, by herself. This guy's 6-7, 230 pounds, and has to shoot one three times to stop it? From the description given by witnesses, they weren't even locked onto each other.

CCW permits need to be a lot harder to get. I have several spare 2x4's if any Texas Pelicans want to re-educate this guy.

JR

[Bill Douglas]

Shooting is not necessary.

On two occasions pitbull type dogs have attacked my dog and my dogs walking buddy of the same breed. I got in and hoisted the pitbull off the ground by the collar. They both went limp after about 10 or 15 seconds while I let the pack of border terriers tear strips off it. The little guy, Buzby wisely went for the pitbull's groin. On both occasions the owner started screaming that I had killed their dog so I dropped them and they came around pretty quickly and took off.

I'm a great believer in self defense and if the attacker loses the fight they deserve to get whatever is dealt out to them. But no guns. That brings the situation into a whole new legal situation.

[vash]

a pit bull killed my friends puppy basset hound. no kicking of the nutsack would turn that dog off. right there in her doorstep. it was awful to see. it burned an image into my mind that is hard to shake. i admit a prejudice. i pit comes running up to me, i instinctively curl my fingers (to protect them from bites, i think)..dumb i know. hell, i almost adopted one a few years ago!!

a few years ago..i heard a jingling chain, looked up and saw a blur coming towards me and my senior small dog. my dog got between me and the pit-torpedo and stood his ground. turned out to be a young pit that got to us wagging and happy. and slobbery..i looked down and my knife was in my hands..the kid looks at me and says..thanks for not stabbing his dog..

scary story..i wasnt there. shooting seem excessive..i know nut kicking does nothing.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by javadog

Yeah, I know. My 5-5, 130 pound wife can break up a fight with a pit bull and another dog of similar size, by herself. This guy's 6-7, 230 pounds, and has to shoot one three times to stop it? From the description given by witnesses, they weren't even locked onto each other.

CCW permits need to be a lot harder to get. I have several spare 2x4's if any Texas Pelicans want to re-educate this guy.

JR

I disagree that concealed carry permits should be more difficult to get, but I do believe that the significant responsibility of carrying a deadly weapon should be emphasized, and this is an event that (if indeed the shooting was not necessary) should be used to highlight the consequences of unjustifiably using deadly force. Of course that guy should face the same consequences police officers face for using deadly force on a dog just because they "feel" threatened. The only way to get people who are trying to act within the law to think twice, is to show that there are consequences if they are wrong.

[Rick Lee]

I'd be real surprised if you're allowed to kill a dog in defense of another dog in any state. Another dog on your property, maybe. But you'd still need a real good reason if anyone was around to witness it.