Attorneys. Again. Any IP attorneys here?

[WolfeMacleod]

I need an IP attorney who can file a design patent for a very simple item. Someone who won't bend me over the coals and nickel and dime me to death.

I spoke to one (suggested by a friend who's used him) who's familiar with the subject (guitars) told me it would run me $1500 to file a simple design patent.


Then, I got a bill for $320 for what amounts to a 15 minute conversation ("is it do-able?") , an email with a picture, and a request for how much it would cost.

Apparently it took him 1/2 hour read a couple lines of email and look at a picture.

[vlocci]

Wolf. I can likely assist. Shoot me a pm.

[WolfeMacleod]

you have a PM

[vash]

i just asked my sister..she would piss you off..annoyed me..

go with V.

[john70t]

Start here: United States Patent and Trademark Office
You are going to want to do a basic search for everything existing before spending money putting it into legalese form.

But remember a patent is only staking a new claim in the wild west.
There can be some big fish out there.
There are tons of patent-squatting companies waiting to pounce on anyone who dares make money off one of their vague and ambiguous filings they bought for pennies off some poor frustrated inventor somewhere long ago.

I tried to file a patent a decade ago, paid for a private search via the attorney, and spent $10K+ formalizing and filing it.
The low end of the scale in most cases using an attorney.
Filing it yourself is cheaper, and with a million ways to screw up some small detail.
Then the USPTO examining attorney found several examples of prior art that contained brief references hidden deep within the blah blah hinting to the concept I was going for: A three rotor electric motor/transmission.

Their designs were completely unrelated, but those single sentences gave them strong legal right to claim infringement if my idea ever made it onto every store shelf and sold for billions.

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally Posted by john70t

Start here: United States Patent and Trademark Office
You are going to want to do a basic search for everything existing before spending money putting it into legalese form.
.

Pretty familiar with the USPTO site. I've spent a large part of the last 15 years there looking at patents in my field and researching various aspect of trademark law.

I've never found anything similar to my design. If there were, it would be in production instead of the poor substitutes people have come up with so far.

[BRPORSCHE]

For some reason I feel that IP law is not something I would want that cheap out on. The process seems so arduous.

[aigel]

Why do you think you need to patent your idea? Do you have the means to patent it around the world? And more importantly, will you have the means to enforce it if someone starts infringing? Do you realize that patenting the idea will put it out there for everyone to see and dissect. People will be able to build on it, modify it, infringe on it etc.

It often is best to start production without patents and get ahead of the competition, become the brand name, make your money before the competition catches up.

What some people do is file in one country and call it "patent pending", hoping to scare away the worst copy cats.

Just some thoughts, I am not an expert but have filed a few through work ...

G

[john70t]

I once talked with people and was told what aigel said.
Over and over people asked "Do you have a prototype?"

Unless sales volume are guaranteed to be huge, hiring an attorney to micromanage the idea to fruition will quickly suck dry any potential small profits.
We don't have the deep pockets of Apple/Google to have an entire legal office on salary.

There might be an easier way to get your name connected to a new design.

Originally Posted by WolfeMacleod

Pretty familiar with the USPTO site. I've spent a large part of the last 15 years there looking at patents in my field and researching various aspect of trademark law.

Just covering the basics. I didn't mean anything by it man.
You can do a government search for $300 and file a utility as a small entity for $140 as a start.
The paperwork fees alone quickly ramp up vertically from there.
Then there is protecting the idea from big overseas companies.

At the end of it all, will the time spent and expenditures be worth more than income?

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally Posted by aigel

Why do you think you need to patent your idea? Do you have the means to patent it around the world? And more importantly, will you have the means to enforce it if someone starts infringing? Do you realize that patenting the idea will put it out there for everyone to see and dissect. People will be able to build on it, modify it, infringe on it etc.

Several of the smaller builders have "borrowed" my ideas, and I'm kind of tired of it. Several years ago, someone outright registered a trademark for one of my product names and went into business for himself, after demanding that I teach him how to make them.
Most of us are pretty friendly towards each other, but there are a few who are not.

I don't see much possibility for people to build on it or modify it really, without making it unsellable. The design is so elegant and simple, that changing it's aesthetics or shape would make it unsightly (or flatly unusable) for it's intended purpose. Guitar players are a very picky bunch.

Originally Posted by john70t

I once talked with people and was told what aigel said.
Over and over people asked "Do you have a prototype?"

Unless sales volume are guaranteed to be huge, hiring an attorney to micromanage the idea to fruition will quickly suck dry any potential small profits.
We don't have the deep pockets of Apple/Google to have an entire legal office on salary.

Then there is protecting the idea from big overseas companies......

.......

At the end of it all, will the time spent and expenditures be worth more than income?

Sales volumes won't be huge, but at the current quote from the above mentioned attorney, it would only take sales of about 10 products to recoup the initial filing costs. I know 10-15 people who would buy it right now, if I could sell it without rendering it unpatentable.

The deterrent to outright copy it by the smaller unfriendly competition is what I'm after mostly. They know they can't afford a patent lawsuit. The big overseas companies... yes, that's a concern. However, the NAMM organization can be helpful when it comes to IP rights. They don't like it when members infringe on the IP rights of other members.
If the friendlies wanted to license it, I'd do it for a dollar.

[nota]

google patent search is very good

perhaps too good

I had an idea for a spark plug + direct-fuel-injection in one unit
bosch beat me by 2 years and had it patented
but the google search found their patent quickly and for free

[intakexhaust]

I think aigel and john70t are spot on. But assuming you achieved and checked all the right boxes, product is on the market and humming along in sales, do you have enough to defend it? Utility patents are bs to a little company. Doesn't matter if US or Intnl. Nobody respects it anymore, enormously costly to defend and unless you have the perpetual motion machine, litigation isn't worth it.

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally Posted by nota

google patent search is very good

perhaps too good

I had an idea for a spark plug + direct-fuel-injection in one unit
bosch beat me by 2 years and had it patented
but the google search found their patent quickly and for free

Yep, I use Google for that too. Nothing like it that I have found in the 17 years since the first prototype was made. Been sitting on it for that long, due to the high cost of tooling. The design was apparently so simple, nobody ever thought of it

[reachme]

My company highly incents us to patent and tells us to never ever use Google for patent search. They mine data. . . they are very good at that.
use Duckduckgo or USPTO

[john70t]

Originally Posted by reachme

never ever use Google for patent search. They mine data. . . they are very good at that.
use Duckduckgo or USPTO

^This.
But I wouldn't trust the other search engines necessarily. Not in preliminary stages without a valid paper trail.

Don't use specific search-terms on google.

There is a thing called "disruptive technology".
Something that changes the game completely.
Something that breaks up nice steady flows of dividends to big player shareholders busy selling last years crap to the unknowing masses.
Everyone will end up attacking that something-new-and-better.

[john70t]

I think you can file a non-provisional (1 year and less rules), and request it be non-published.