Racking a slide back is a matter of technique, not strength. Any adult who says they can't do it is doing it wrong.

Wow - that is a neat spoon. Love the fact that it is an HK, and the modular design is intriguing. I like that you replace the spring and barrel instead of just the barrel when swapping calibers, since the spring needs to be match to the recoil energy of the caliber. Nice looking spoon too! That said, my biggest concern with the HK 4 is that is was last produced in 1984, and thus, parts availability may be an issue. Still, I will research this option closer, as spoon would fit the bill nicely!

First and primary priority is personal defense - carry or other. My HK P30 9mm is my home defense spoon, and the new spoon would be a backup to the HK. But since the HK is not a compact firearm, it is not ideal for carry. The new, smaller spoon would fit that role better. I live in NJ, where CCW's are pretty much impossible to attain, but I do have a Utah CCW, so I can carry in most other states. On a side note: I am really hoping that National CCW reciprocity happens - clearing the way for a more unified approach to carry laws...

-Z-man.

National CCW is never going to happen and, if it did, it'd open such a can of worms for people getting harassed in states that didn't want it and felt like it was forced on them. Also, be very careful relying on your UT permit. I have one too and there are plenty of states that only recognize UT permits belonging to UT residents. Non-resident permits are frowned upon in a lot of states.

If National CCW happens, then states that do not honor it will get a boat-load of law suits -- doesn't the constitution say something about equal protection? (See 14th Ammendment) :D I agree that it is a tough battle, but the current system allows legitimate CCW holders to stumble into issues when going from state to state...

Regarding the UT permit - technically, there are only two types of CCW permits issued by UT - one for LEO's and retired LEO's, and one for civilians. IE: there is no difference between a resident Utah CCW and a non-resident Utah CCW. However, I can see how a non-resident Utah CCW holder can get harassed by virtue of his address clearly printed on the card.. Bottom line: having a CCW doesn't give a person the right to be a jerk - and jerks are the ones that typically get harassed...

-Z

I'm not entirely certain what Jeff was getting at with his killing with a handgun line of thinking, but what I've taken from it is this: Shooting an actual living moving target is VERY different than punching holes in paper or ringing steel, and bullet placement is far more significant than caliber or bullet design. Whatever you get, make sure you learn to shoot it well.

Z-man, what I mean is to not assume all those states listed as having reciprocity with UT will accept your permit. You'd have to check each state's AG's or state police website to see. I know my UT permit has fallen out of (and probably gained or regained) reciprocity with several states since I got it, and some states just won't accept it from non-UT residents. I originally got it because NV accepted it, but not AZ permits. That has changed at least twice since I finally got my NV permit after they stopped taking UT permits. And, with UT-certified instructors, they have to maintain their certification by doing training inside the state of UT every few years, which is a real burden for a lot of folks who don't live nearby. My instructor let his cert. lapse because he couldn't get enough applicants in AZ to make it worthwhile. But once you have a permit, you can renew it by mail, as I did last summer. Just be careful. I was stopped by NV State Police right after I got my NV permit. He asked why I had a NV permit. I said, "Because I come here on business a lot, spend a lot of money in your state AND, more importantly, you just stopped accepting UT permits." He said I was lucky I knew about that.

Taz's boss: Absolutely. Took safety and shooting classes before I ever put a round in my spoon! But that's not enough -- any shooter should be engaged in some form of continuous training, IMNO.

Rick: Understood. And prudence pays off. I got my UT CCW since PA had reciprocity. Now, PA does not honor UT CCW. I always check with the states I am travelling to before making any assumptions...

-Z

Z-man,
Heard about a compact VP9 at SHOT this year.
Troy

My 13 year old daughter can rack the slide easy enough on a Colt 1908 in .380 if that helps.

It was a p30.....
I thought that was a joke?

Quick update:

- Walther PPK/S (Smith & Wesson made) is discontinued for now. While I wanted to buy one at the local gun shop to support our area economy, I may have to find one on Gun broker. But I suspect there will be a run up on the prices until the new version comes out.

- The local gun shop as a vintage German-made PP, in .32 calliber, but it has been re-blued, and thus, the Walther stamping on the slide is polished off. In excellent condition, that spoon would likely fetch over a grand. The shop wants around $600 for it, but I am hesitant to get that. That was sure a pretty spoon --feels right at home in my hands!

- The Sig Sauer P232 was another .380 that I was interested in, but that has also been discontinued.

- Saw the Glock 42 - nice spoon, but not my style. I'm not a big fanboy of the Glocks.

- While not set on the caliber, I will focus on .380 spoons, and possibly 9mm.

So the search continues. Will look at some of the other Walthers, and maybe some Berettas and Rugers as well...

Pretty much spot on concerning the critical nature of bullet placement when hunting with a handgun, and with regards to how much different it is than ringing steel or punching paper.

My real take away, however, from hunting with handguns off and on beginning in the early '80's is this: they are very marginal killers, and even worse "stoppers". Even the most "powerful" of what I refer to as "sidearms" (revolvers and pistols as opposed to dedicated hunting single shot "pistols", most of which are no more than short rifles... but I digress...) pale when compared to even the most "under powered" of rifles.

I've shot somewhere between 15 and 20 mule deer, several pretty darn average black bear, half a dozen caribou, a couple of pronghorn, and dozens upon dozens of coyotes and rock chucks with various handguns. Not to mention grouse, sage rats, prairie dogs, racoons, and other such small game.

I've used primarily single action revolvers in .357 and .44 mag, along with the .45 Colt. I've used the .45 ACP in 1911's and the 9mm in a wartime P38. I've had pretty darn good success, but have also experienced what I would characterize as abject failures, some of which turned into real pains in the ass.

The main mode of failure that plagued me early on was a simple failure to penetrate deep enough to get to anything important. This was when I was hunting with jacketed bullets, mostly soft points, but at times I hunted with hollow points. I didn't know much better at first, but I eventually picked up on what was happening. It didn't matter how "big" and "powerful" the round was that launched them, either. A couple of my most colossal failures were with very stoutly loaded 240 grain JSP's from the .44 mag. They didn't even have to hit a big bone to fail to penetrate adequately; even a rib would sometimes make them "splat" and fail to penetrate. This happened on both 250 pound mulies and 40 pound coyotes.

Even worse failures were produced by the autoloaders shooting ball ammunition. Even small coyotes and rock chucks would seemingly just shrug off good hits from the .45 ACP and 9mm. Yes, I'm sure each and every one eventually died, but that's not what we are looking for. I never even considered using these on deer (besides, it's illegal here in Washington and many other states as well).

Things picked up immeasurably when I went back to casting bullets (a skill I learned to hate as a kid, but that's another story). Flat nosed, hard cast, heavy for caliber semi-wadcutters proved to be an order of magnitude more effective on the animals I was shooting. Where I had developed deep reservations about the .357 as anything more than a grouse and prairie dog gun, it was now planting big rock chucks and coyotes with some authority. The .44 mag and heavy loaded .45 Colt were now honest big game calibers. It was all about the bullet.

So where am I going with this? Well, I've seen lowly 20 pound rock chucks, and not much bigger coyotes, simply run off from very solid hits from magnum revolver calibers when shooting the wrong bullet. Some of the bullets I was using were widely touted in the various advertising and gun rags as real "man stoppers", yet they would fail to anchor animals a fraction of our size, even when very well hit. Many, many "field autopsies" (on the ones we could eventually find) would reveal the same thing - bullets that failed to penetrate adequately.

So what happens when we take this same genre of bullet - the JSP or JHP - and reduce its velocity (and maybe even diameter) to what is practical for use in small concealment guns? If a .357 or .44 mag can't drive an expanding bullet deeply enough into animals a fraction of our size, what makes anyone think a .380 or .32 auto can do so?

They simply cannot. With the handgun, we are forced to choose - penetration or expansion. We don't get both, unlike with the rifle. I've made my choice based upon my own experiences in the field, having killed many animals with the handgun. And, maybe even more importantly, having failed to kill a few quickly enough to recover them (talk about a horrible feeling...). I would never carry a defensive handgun in a caliber that did not start with a "4". It would never have bullets of a weight that did not start with a "2". And, most importantly, it will always be stoked with hard cast semi-wadcutters, meant to penetrate above all else. My personal experience has taught me those are the most reliable combinations - forty-something caliber, two hundred-something grain bullets, and flat nosed, non-expanding, semi-wadcutters. Even those don't work every time, but they sure as hell work more often than smaller, lighter, jacketed bullets. At least in my experience.

I wonder if there is any actual real data on caliber effectiveness for CCW self defense.

Suppose Mrs. Z is attacked by a criminal, and shoots him. It really doesn't matter if she cleanly kills him (even though that might be nice), it may not matter if she instantly incapacitates him (though that surely would be nice).

What is important is that he changes his mind about robbing or raping her.

It seems to me that is a less demanding task for the bullet. How motivated is a criminal who thought he was preying on a defenseless woman and suddenly finds himself getting shot?

And, as is always pointed out, a little bullet is better than no bullet.

This is why I am not convinced that the minimal requirements for a hunting round are necessarily the minimal requirements for a self defense round.

So I'm wondering if there is any actual data on the outcome when a would be victim shoots a criminal with a .380 or .32 or 9 mm or .357. Does the criminal flee or otherwise break off his attack? Is there any correlation between result and caliber?.

With millions of CCW guns out there, there must be hundreds of these events to study. If not, that raises a whole 'nother question.

You are absolutely correct about hunting vs self-defense needs. However it would be foolish to disregard Jeff's experience. I believe his first hand experience is far more valuable input in response to a request for advice than a summation of something I remember reading. I personally do not believe that a .357 magnum is inadequate for self-defense, but I do agree that it is marginal (out of a handgun) for medium game. I agree with him that expansion and penetration in ballistic gel is not likely to be what you get in the real world, and his input is worth serious consideration. There are plenty of handguns that you can buy hollowpoint self-defense ammo for that will not drive those bullets at a velocity which will allow them to expand, and if they did expand would not give remotely sufficient penetration. Just showing the weapon may end the attack, but if you are carrying to protect yourself from a life-threatening attack, you need to know if what you're carrying can be relied upon to do the job. There is some great ammo out there, but very little will our-perform a SWC greater than .40 caliber and greater than 200 grains of weight. That may exceed the minimum necessary parameters to defend yourself in many situations, but it will get the job done in scenarios when lesser options will not.

I have to agree with jyl and Taz's boss here. Another thing to consider is how a perp reacts if shot, especially if he is surprised by the mode of defense. An attacker is not going to stop and wonder what type of caliber of bullet just ripped a hole in him, or if there was sufficient penetration and expansion to cause immediate death! He will likely be in shock, and the immediate loss of blood will impede his ability to be coherent for an extended length of time.

If shot, the perp will likely assess the situation and determine which of the 'fight or flight' choices to take. And that decision may be (hopefully) helped along by a second or third shot to his center of mass.

Jeff: in your experience, how far away were the animals that you shot, but were unable to take down? 25 to 50 yards? Further? Also - I assume that in most cases you and your target were not in an open field together, so your bullets may not have had a clear path to your target. (twigs, underbrush...etc). These to factors (distance and obstacles) do play a role in the effectiveness of a shot. In a self defense situation, I will likely be aiming for a target that is less than 10 yards away, likely even closer. If there is an obstacle between the perp and I, it will probably be a brick wall or car, and in that case, it is unlikely that any type of ammo coming out of a handgun will be able to sufficiently penetrate the obstacle AND inflict an effective blow to the target.

-Z-man.

This will stop em:cool:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1429376364.jpg

I used to have a Makarov 380. Russian and very accurate. Put in some Hydroshock hollow points and your good to go. It was stolen back in 93 when someone broke into my apartment. Now I have a Glock model 22.

Unless they are a 20 lb rock chuck, according to Jeff.

There was a listing for 10 German Walther PPs for $289 each on gun broker this morning. I was going to get one but I went with a Sig P230 for $299 from the same seller.