Considering a new hand spoon
 

Looking for a new spoon. Some criteria:
1. Easy for Mrs. Z to handle, but still with stopping power. Thinking .380 or a 32.
2. Primary use: target and CCW use (where applicable).
3. Prefer semi-auto. With the smaller ammo, will likely be a blowback design.
4. Would really like a spoon with ambidextrous controls since I am left-hand dominant, but those are hard to find, especially with smaller framed spoons.
5. Prefer all metal and stainless vs. composite and blackened / blued metal. (Already have a composite spoon - HK P30).
6. Of course, reliability is a factor.


So far, I've researched the following:

Walther PPK/S: my top choice. Very sleek looking spoon. Historical. (And Bond had one too!)

Sig P232. Very similar to PPK/S. Nicely weighted, clean spoon.

Also considering a .22 pinkler. For that, I've looked at the Beretta Neos, aka the "Bladerunner gun."

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks,
-Z

Glock 23 with a conversion kit to use 22 longs. Easy on the pocket to practice and have muscle memory at the range. 40 cal is no 45 but big enough to handle most jobs with a double tap.

I LOVE my Browning Buckmark as a plinker.

As a little carry gun the Glock 42 is pretty sweet.

I pocket carry a Ruger LCP .380, but it sucks for target practice. Way too snappy to be comfortable. I'd recommend the .380 for CCW, and get her a nice Ruger Mark III .22 for target shooting.

I'm certainly all ears on this thread, can't wait to find out which two to keep http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...shockwhore.gif
Jim

"Stopping power" and ".380 or .32" are mutually exclusive concepts.

To paraphrase the late Col. Jeff Cooper, the primary difficulty with the .380 and lesser so-called "defensive" rounds is that they really aren't. They may, however, lead their owners to believe they are, which may then lead said owner to actually shoot a bad guy with one. That's where the trouble begins - if said bad guy notices, or ever finds out, he's going to be even more pissed off than he already was.

Target and CCW are kind of incompatible uses. CCW guns usually have rudimentary sights, not much grip to hold, short barrels, and stiff recoil for the caliber. Not necessarily that fun to shoot a lot, and not usually meant to hit a bullseye. Target guns are, well, the opposite in every way. I would suggest a genuine target .22 and a genuine CCW gun. Two is always more fun than one.

The Sig would be nice. Google gun forums for the Walther. I don't think they are the same beast as thy were first time 'round. cheaper construction etc - they sure look nice though.

In my humble opinion... I'd avoid the .32. Not much more grunt than a .22LR. The .380 however makes quite a bang.

Always find it interesting how the .380 and .32 are considered lame in the US yet in Europe they are used very widely for self defense and police applications as well. You can read plenty of crime reports in Europe where the 7.65 aka .32 did plenty of people in. It doesn't seem there are many people pissed off by 9 mm short and 7.65 - rather they are all dead.

That said, I don't get the fascination with pistols for self defense. Revolvers are so much simpler and always will go boom. That's what I'd carry if I would feel inclined to do so. Yes, they are 1/2 inch thicker ...

JMHO on both subjects ...

G

Blowback operated pistols tend to have very stiff recoil springs. We had a P232 and my wife hated it. It was difficult for her to pull the slide back, and was too big and heavy for being a .380. Also at the time .380 was nowhere to be found.

This. My wife struggles to pull the slide back on everything short of my son's Sig Mosquito .22LR. She has small hands and finds it hard to grip the slide. Make sure she handles everything you are considering for her. If she doesn't shoot often I would totally agree with George, a revolver is a simpler more reliable choice. I also agree with jyl, if it's good for CCH, it's not going to be much fun at the range. My Sig P938 is great for CCH, but not what I would consider "fun" to shoot at the range.

When I was CCH shopping I also thought the PPK was pretty cool, but I handled one and thought it felt really cheap. I did not look at the Sig P232, but consider the Sig P238. It's slightly smaller than my P938. If you get a .22 plinker, I would avoid the Sig Mosquito. We bought my oldest son one for Christmas and it has been problematic. I filed and polished the feed ramp to remove a lip that was causing FTF, and it's really picky about ammo.

Yeah, my first thought was: Ruger SP 101 in .327 Federal! Shoot softer .32's at targets and magnums for self defense, perfect! But that's what I would want, and not what Z-man has suggested either he or his wife are attracted to. But if you did go that way, you know for her, since you were already shooting a .32, you could justify a Colt Police Positive, and maybe an old Winchester lever action in .32-20, and...

On second thought Z-man stay away from revolvers, that kind of addiction is a disease.

Working the slide.............
 

If you haven't tried it, one way to rack the slide on an auto is to hold the gun in the shooting hand and then grasp the slide on the top using all fingers and thumb to get a good grasp. Then, using your upper body muscles, push your hands together to work the slide. This method is much easier for individuals that have hand strength issues. Also, as mentioned above, it will be easier to work the slide on a locked breach gun than on a blowback version. For a really compact revolver, find a Colt Pocket Positive in .32. They were available with a 2" bbl and the cylinder is quite a bit smaller than the one in a Detective Special or a S&W Chiefs Special. With the right loads, even the old .32 S&W long round can be "useful". Good luck!

I have to agree with most of the other posters because this one time I shot a guy with a .380 right in the chest and he was like . . . "Ow, man!" and I totally had to hit him again. It was at that point I realized my carry gun was way too pussy.

Thanks for the input so far -- lots to consider...

To clarify some points:

Target vs. CCW: People go to the range for different reasons - competitive shooting, trying out new hardware, getting familiar with a newly purchased spoon...etc. The main reason I go is to become familiar with the use of my own spoons. Fortunately, my range offers a ton of courses (holster draw, urban assault, protective pen defense...etc) so my training goes beyond just putting holes in paper. That said, if you have a CCW spoon and don't take it to the range, then how do you expect to use it effectively if the need arises? Also - I don't need to hit a dime at 100 yards with a CCW spoon -- but I do need to be able to hit center of mass at 5-10 yards.

Regarding ammo -- any size ammo can be either lethal or ineffective. Even a .45 won't do much harm if the target is over a mile away! If I ever need to use a CCW spoon, it would be in very tight quarters - again - 5-7 yards away would be the maximum distance I'm looking at. At that distance, a .22 may only cause minimal damage, unless the shot is dead on. But a .380 at 5 yards should have sufficient penetrating force. For me, the use of a CCW is the last resort - only after all other means of dispelling the situation have been exhausted, which is why I wouldn't draw on a target at 50 yards. Also - if I am injured, or Mrs. Z needs to handle a CCW spoon - a .380 has less recoil than a .45, or even a small framed 9mm. A hard to handle, larger caliber spoon may not be the most effective CCW. "Go big or go home" isn't always the best policy, IMHO.

Regarding revolvers - I'm not a big fan. Granted, they go bang every time, and are one of the most reliable types of spoons - but it's not my flavor...

Keep the advise and input coming -- appreciate it all!

Thanks,
-Z

Remember the difference between developing genuine proficiency in pistol target shooting vs developing minimal competency in a CCW context.

For proficient pistol target shooting, you need: stable stance, controlled rhythm/magnitude of movement and breathing, accurate sight picture, consistent grip and squeeze/pull, minimized involuntary inputs (not just flinching, but moving off target when squeezing), and a reproducible shot that you can adjust minutely as needed, all in a quiet, prepared, focused, mental state. And if you compete, do it one-handed. E.g. at the range, target at 25 yards, the last shot was 1" to upper right, you can straighten up from the spotting scope, resume the stance, make minute adjustments, and reliably bring the next shot 1" down and left. (I don't know pistol hunting or "action" shooting, but no doubt there are analogous requirements.)

For minimal CCW, you need: disengage safety, point, fire and hit somewhere in 24" H x 12" W at 3-5 yards, very rapidly (1 or 2 seconds), all in a very different mental state. E.g. at the range, close eyes, lower pistol hand to shooting bench, turn a little left/right so you're not sure exactly where you are facing, stand in a sort of random way, flick target movement switch to move target back/forth by some unknown amount, open eyes, raise pistol to target, without using the sights, fire 2X in 2 seconds, and do this one and two-handed. (I don't know if that is the "best" way to practice, but that's the best I could ever come up with in the context of pistol range safety rules, and even then I didn't do it when the range master was watching).

So, both require practice. But the practice for target shooting is, in my opinion, more interesting and more fun. If all you do at the range is point shooting at 5 yards, that gets boring fast and, again in my opinion, you lose interest in pistol shooting pretty quickly. So that is why I suggest getting her a brace of pistols that will encourage her to do both.

Time for a caveat: Like almost everyone on this thread, my "knowledge" of self defense shooting is entirely theoretical. On the target stuff, I've been shooting since I was 8 y/o and at one point was going to the range with my spotting scope 3X week, but I have never been a competitive shooter, so I can't pretend to know what a real Olympic or bullseye shooter does.

While it's not all steel, check out the new Ruger LC9S.

Nice little shooter and CCW piece.

Z, I see a lot of info about you. But isn't this for the wife? Unless she has an equal interest in establishing mastery with an semi-auto, that's the last thing you should tell her to grab. Compared to a revolver it is more complicated, less reliable, and much easier to screw up. If your goal is something that she can grab in a moment of panic when you aren't home, your personal preferences should be the lowest priority. Fact is a revolver requires the trigger to be pulled and it goes bang, every time. No slide to cycle, no safety to disengage, no magazine release to accidentally hit, no possibility of a failure to fire.

When I am out of town I tell my wife to go for either of my 6" revolvers in the event of trouble. They are easy to shoot, accurate, and look really scary to a home invader.

John - the holster draw class I took at my range detailed the following steps:

1. Draw firearm from holder, rotate the muzzle of the firearm towards the target once it clears the holster. Trigger finger remains outside of trigger guard, unless imminent threat is evident.
2. In one continuous motion, bring firearm up to chest, if able bring non-dominant hand to firearm, and punch out to ready position.
3. Acquire target, more finger onto trigger.
4. Fire two to center of mass, one to head.
5. Return firearm to position sul (arms in, firearm in both hands at chest.)
6. Step right or left one or two steps. (To remove yourself from the threats 'tunnel vision' line of sight).
7. Look right, look left, including over the shoulder (for the other potential threats).
8. If thread has been disabled, return firearm to holster.

While these steps do not cover all of the scenarios that one may encounter in CCW situations, it does lay a solid foundation to work off of.

-Z

Can you rent firearms at your range? Let her decide what fits her, and how much recoil makes shooting unpleasant. Go to your LGS check a few out, then rent her favorites at the range. Don't ignore revolvers, or (if you know what you're doing) used options.