Why is prostitution illegal?

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by oilcan

Nice job MRM. I think you nailed it.

As usual MRM....but then there's this aspect too imo (next quote below)...

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

....We should stick to making laws we can actually enforce.

BTW...there are still quite a few "dry counties" here in NC. You can't buy a beer, but moonshine (and now "weed" (another unenforceable boondoggle)) thrive in these areas...it's been that way for decades now.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by reachme

Germany, Italy, Netherlands all have legal, taxed prostitution houses/high rises and they have some of the strongest workers rights laws anywhere.
I don't really know but I expect these are still sad seedy places, yes pun intended.

The red light district in Amsterdam is cleaner that much of Manhattan. The last time I was there someone booked a hotel for us and it was right on the edge of the red light district. My wife wanted to see the hos so we took a walk. Nothing. It looked like any city residential area until dark, then the curtains came open and the red lights came on. I can't say many of the workers were attractive. On, who was next door to our hotel, was typing away on a iPad and never even looked up. She needs to take a marketing class.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by MRM

Because women's nipples are sexy and men's aren't. Ick. I think I need to wash my eyes out just thinking of it.

No, none of my concerns are related to the illegality of prostitution and none of the concerns would be alleviated by making it legal.

Johns will pay extra to ride bareback if the law allows prostitution but requires condoms. Even if prostitutes are protected by trade unions Johns will pay extra to beat prostitutes, pee on them, or do other things that sick human beings do to people they purchased. Legality would not change the fact that almost all women who go into prostitution were abused and started prostitutiin as a minor at the direction of an older male. It doesn't change the fact that to be able to live the lifestyle of having sex with 20 stinking, violent overweight johns a day you have to be high.

Healthy human beings do not engage in sex with strangers for money. Do not challenge my feminist credentials. I belong to the post-feminist critique who fully understand the duality of objectification and reject it. I can sloganeer better than anyone on this board. But that doesn't change the fact that anti-prostitution laws are a human rights protection scheme, not a patriarchal legacy keeping the woman down. Woman should be free to decide who they have sex with when they want it. Prostitution is an anathema to that value.

Again - you are stating things that would be changed were it legal and regulated. Yes, johns may 'ask' to 'ride bareback' however, now it would be up to the woman to make that decision - not a pimp or member of organized crime. If she said 'no' - than no it is. If she said 'yes' she would understand the consequences of her actions, and also be tested regularly for STDs (all service providers would be) - women who are infected aren't going to be allowed to work. She understands the consequences, we clean up the 'product'.

Legality does change the fact that prostitutes are abused and are started at a young age by some 'pimp' daddy. If women have an outlet to report abuse, and are not fearful of the repercussions of being in an illegal trade, they will report. The men who abuse prostitutes now do so because they know that there will be little if any punishment for their actions because they know the women will not report them for fear of going to jail themselves on prostitution charges, and then, when they get out, they will be beaten by their pimp for reporting a good customer. However, even if it were legal, men will still ask to beat them and do other disgusting things. But in this case there is a difference - most women will probably say no (their decision, not their pimps) but, some women may say 'yes', because they enjoy 'sick' things or have decided the money is worth it - not because some criminal requires her to do it under the threat of physical/emotional harm. Again - there is a huge difference between being forced to do these things, and freely saying 'yes'.

Women should be free to decide 'who, what, when, where and why' when it comes to sex, something illegal prostitution is just the opposite of - they don't get to decide any of that - because they are under the control of others, freedom denied. In legal prostitution not only do the women get to decide 'who, what, when, where and why' but also, if they desire, how much. That is freedom, not pretending that the problem will go away if you make it illegal. Making it illegal is what keeps women under the influence of organized crime and pimps. It isn't going to go away - it has been illegal for almost a century throughout the US - has it gone away - nope, and it won't go away (it isn't referred to as the oldest profession for nothing...). However making it illegal has put many women in great danger. Legalizing it would free women to take control of their destinies, and the funds that they earn, while reducing their exposure to the horrendous conditions that has resulted by making this the 'stock and trade' of organized crime and pimps.

Again - allowing women to decide the terms of the transaction is truly the freedom that you speak of, not pretending that the problem will go away by keeping it illegal. That is a sentence which will allow crime and pimps to continue on the way they have for decades, abusing and using women.

[zelrik911]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

If prostitution were legalized, the stigma would evenutally evaporate, competition would increase and the economic value of sex would diminish.

I believe many womens' obsessions about their looks is directly due to their attempts to make their sex more valuable than someone else's. Legalizing prostitution would be devastating to gyneconomics.

One rarely mentioned reason that more and more women are in the workforce is because sex is becoming cheaper and more available.

In my opinion, I don't see women being happier now. They are beginning to work harder and longer are angrier and are dying sooner.

For men the issue would become even more one of why buy when you can rent?
.

This is very very true.
We have (in Australia) legalised prostitution and one result is exactly this - more of our single female friends are staying in the workforce because they cant get married.

The cheapening of sex means that men - potential husbands - just dont bother to court these single women. 25 years ago (when we were like US), men would make an effort and would perhaps marry for sex, the lucky couple would have babies and the wives would stay out of the workforce for as long as financial circumstances would allow.

In our social group there are now a lot of women friends who are missing out on partnerships.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by zelrik911

This is very very true.
We have (in Australia) legalised prostitution and one result is exactly this - more of our single female friends are staying in the workforce because they cant get married.

The cheapening of sex means that men - potential husbands - just dont bother to court these single women. 25 years ago (when we were like US), men would make an effort and would perhaps marry for sex, the lucky couple would have babies and the wives would stay out of the workforce for as long as financial circumstances would allow.

In our social group there are now a lot of women friends who are missing out on partnerships.

So, men are so shallow that all they want is sex - that is what marriage is only about, sex? Companionship, procreation, love... means nothing.

And aren't marriages based on sex alone usually destined for failure? The ones I have seen headed south pretty fast.

And maybe many women like working - just like men. We like being valued for our skills in the workforce, we like the independence that it affords us, the value of friendship of those you work with and the reward of being successful at what you do. I assume you enjoy working, why would women be any different?

[island911]

Great thread.

and foxpause thinks that prostitution will be okeedooky as long as the great government is their pimp.

I'm shocked.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by zelrik911

25 years ago (when we were like US), men would make an effort and would perhaps marry for sex, the lucky couple

What a lucky woman. .
If this is the alternative, prostitution should be legal.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by island911

Great thread.

and foxpause thinks that prostitution will be okeedooky as long as the great government is their pimp.

I'm shocked.

I think the government will do a superior job when compared to the current status quo of pimps and organized crime. You obviously think that we should leave it to pimps and organized crime. Prostitution will exist, of that there shouldn't be much doubt, but, I find it odd you would rather have the women beaten and subjugated by pimps and organized crime, rather than paying taxes, getting check ups and not getting beaten. Odd choice - but perhaps a reflection of how you think women should be treated, chattel rather than choice?

[Cajundaddy]

I find it ironic that we live in a country where drugs and prostitution are illegal yet abortion is legal, and often paid for by the state. The practice of all three is dehumanizing to everyone involved and a bit of a stain on "modern society" but I am a realist and understand that people take risks and often do things that are not in their best interest. Prohibition creates a criminal underground that puts these people at 100 times the risk of making it legal, tested, taxed, regulated, educated. Are we really protecting women with laws against prostitution or putting them at greater risk by fueling criminal organizations? Nevada and Amsterdam are two examples where it is legal and seems to protect women in this trade far better than here where it is illegal.

I actually know a few women who worked in this business for a while. One probably still does. They are all three stunners who were high priced call girls in their twenties and voluntarily chose to do this for quite a while. They liked the money, the hours, and felt empowered by squeezing ever more $$ from high rollers and vacationing ultra-wealthy. Drugs to numb the emotional pain were always involved.

Two are out for sure, now married, and realize that it was Alice-in-Wonderland weird fantasyland that they were lucky to escape. Adapting to gentile society can be difficult when you have been exploiting your assets through your twenties. One is now actively educating girls at risk in Nevada to encourage them to make different choices. These girls may have had very different experiences than most by being at the top of the demand curve but I think all three agree that regulation, taxes, and education would offer more protection than less.

I don't agree with the choices these girls made at 18-20 but I don't feel comfortable judging them either. I made a few risky moves in my youth as well...

[island911]

Originally Posted by foxpaws

I think the government will do a superior job when compared to the current status quo of pimps and organized crime. You obviously think that...

I just love how you repeatedly build angry hate-filled strawmen at every turn. ..and then hold up the goons in govt as some sort of saints. I bet you liked Edwards. Was Bill -bang'em- Clinton your hero? How about Anthony Weiner?

Sheesh, the distortions you must make to maintain your delusions...

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by island911

I just love how you repeatedly build angry hate-filled strawmen at every turn. ..and then hold up the goons in govt as some sort of saints. I bet you liked Edwards. Was Bill -bang'em- Clinton your hero? How about Anthony Weiner?

Sheesh, the distortions you must make to maintain your delusions...

So, in reality we do have two choices, mainly because prostitution will not go away, hasn't since the dawn of time, won't now. We can continue to make it illegal and admit that it will remain a commodity of pimps and organized crime, or legalize, regulate and empower the women.

You seem to think that the former is superior to the later, but I would love to hear differently - do you think that the current status quo is the way to go, keeping it illegal and accepting the fact that the women will be treated terribly, or make it legal and let women have a larger voice in the process?

Your silly politically motivated misdirects appear to indicate that you are unable to discuss this rationally - again, perhaps a sign that you agree with the current state of 'women as chattel' when it comes to the question of legalizing prostitution, and are unable to actually discuss this horrendous problem objectively.

[island911]

Originally Posted by foxpaws

..
Your silly politically motivated misdirects appear to indicate that you are unable to discuss this rationally - ...

LOL - Project much?

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by island911

I just love how you repeatedly build angry hate-filled strawmen at every turn. ..and then hold up the goons in govt as some sort of saints. I bet you liked Edwards. Was Bill -bang'em- Clinton your hero? How about Anthony Weiner?

Sheesh, the distortions you must make to maintain your delusions...

Anyway you can keep the lame politice sh!! out of the convo for a change? You're threatening to ruin a really good conversation with your "pile on Fox" agenda.

Really tiring.

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by island911

LOL - Project much?

Mad cause he can't even buy it.

[island911]

Originally Posted by foxpaws

So, in reality we do have two choices, mainly because prostitution will not go away, hasn't since the dawn of time, won't now. We can continue to make it illegal and admit that it will remain a commodity of pimps and organized crime, or legalize, regulate and empower the women. .

Let's use your 'logic' for domestic abuse. Since the dawn of time, men, and women, have always existed who beat their spouses. Ergo, we need the to make it legal such that it can be regulated.

Seriously, smart people here have posted some thoughtful responses here, and then you come along with this twisted 'logic." But at least you build hate-filled strawmen along the way.

[island911]

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

Mad cause he can't even buy it.

Hooo That was a GOOD ONE. Pure comedy gold. Wit, on display rite thar.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by island911

Let's use your 'logic' for domestic abuse. Since the dawn of time, men, and women, have always existed who beat their spouses. Ergo, we need the to make it legal such that it can be regulated.

Seriously, smart people here have posted some thoughtful responses here, and then you come along with this twisted 'logic." But at least you build hate-filled strawmen along the way.

The logic isn't the same - murder has also happened since the dawn of time, should we make it legal? Slippery slope arguments don't work because in this case they aren't equal. In the case of domestic abuse, you have a victim, unlike the case of legalized prostitution where you have a transaction.

Sorry, you seem to not understand the problem, but again, I would love to hear your 'solution'. We can keep it illegal, admit that it will exist in an 'underground form' as it has in this country since the late 1920s, and be 'comfortable' with women being used and abused by organized crime and pimps. Or look at other options. We could of course throw a huge amount of enforcement money at the problem, maybe that is your preferred solution, a whole lot of taxpayer money tossed at something that will just be driven further underground, because it will not be going away, however, I am sure you could cut down on some of the transactions. Maybe cut off the penises of johns, I would imagine that would get some attention, and cut down on the customer base. Could go more libertarian and make it legal without regulation - 'buyer beware' as well....

How about actually putting some options on the table? You haven't seemed to have added to the conversation up to this point, merely distracted. I may also add that cajundaddy has used the same logic - it is going to exist - why put the women at greater risk by keeping it illegal? He also seems to have some rather compelling anecdotal evidence, where the women involved in the trade he believes would also be in favor of legalization.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by oilcan

Nice job MRM. I think you nailed it.

I concur.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

Anyway you can keep the lame politice sh!! out of the convo for a change? You're threatening to ruin a really good conversation with your "pile on Fox" agenda.

Really tiring.

He takes great satisfaction on being a turd in the punch bowl of life. If this was an actual salon, (or saloon), everyone would suddenly check their watch and have to get home when he walks in the door.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Sex is not illegal. You can take someone out for dinner, or buy them jewelry, even pay them straight cash if you are making a porn movie, but still prostitution is, for the most part, prohibited in almost all places, in almost every country. What is the deal with that?

It would be the end of WIC, single moms would be able to support themselves and there would be political consequences.

At least that's what my tea party buddy tells me.