- 993 (the grand-daddy of all the “tweaks”) powerplants.
nice choice but I be more inclined to call this motor daddy.

350hp 3.5 slidevalve. Sure it's gonna be 25k so the 993 swap around 10k is looking pretty good to most of us.

Ouch!!
Hello Daddy.

Those tail lights just look plain mean.
Baudinet, if you're reading this, I think it's time to find some sky scraping induction trumpets for the '69.

Beyond the aesthetic preference for 'early cars' by many enthusiasts, there is plenty of justification for pre-1974 911's being thought of in a different light from the rest of the line. In fact, the entire musclecar era died a sudden death in 1973 due to increasing government mandates on smog and safety equipment - no more Hemi-Cudas; no more LS-6 SS Chevelles, no more 428 Mustangs; and no more 911S's! Sure, the manufacturers tried to cash in on the legendary names with their 'badge-engineering' in the post-73 era, but it was a joke. These new regulations were drastic and unlike any other in automotive history.

At Porsche around the same time, there were huge managerial changes and the company went from a family-owned cottage-industry-like organization to a full-fledged corporation under the watchful eye of the beancounters. Further, the market dictated that cars in the price-range of a Porsche should have all the amenities of other luxury cars. So most 911's were now ordered with (or came standard with) power windows and locks, air conditioning, sunroofs, plush carpeting, etc. etc. Together with the safety/smog equipment, weight increased and the 'feel' of the pre-74 911's was lost forever.

It really was a unique era in automotive history. And not just for Porsche. Just one man's opinion. :) -- Curt

P.S. - can you imagine some of the performance machinery that would have been available had our pointy-headed politicians not peed in our punch bowl in 73???!!! And don't forget to vote tommorow - who knows what other brilliant ideas they can up with for the auto industry! ;)

Curt,

You need to look at some production cars that Porsche mass produced since '73. While I'm very fond of the early sport models these later RS's leave nothing on the table.

'73 911 RS. Weight 2370 lbs, power 210 bhp. Power/weight - .088

'91 911 RS. Weight 2690 lbs, power 260 bhp. Power/weight - .100

'95 911 RS. Weight 2800 lbs, power 300 bhp. Power/weight - .107

So you see Porsche has been making more aggressive sport models as time goes on. All of them have been true to the original RS creedo, and in fact may have surpassed the original RS's rawness. Again, we all love the 2.7 RS but we need to look at some of the more modern sport models and see the reality of what Porsche has been doing.

No sweat MG, I'm gonna bet you'll get real good at swapping the tails back & forth....SmileWavy

John,

There's no doubt that Porsche (and many other manufacturers) produced cars post-73 that can 'out-perform' a 73 2.7RS. I'm not arguing that. I'm only making the case for the unique era in which the 65-73 911's were produced and why they are special in some enthusiast's minds. -- Curt

Fish in a barrel....
 

The later RS's left nothing on the table all right....they ate it all!

91'....2,690 lbs
95'....2,800 lbs

The 911R concept was in the other direction......pounds wise at least.....what's that old saying "objects in motion"?....I don't think you would hardly apply the term "tossable" to anything post 73'.

RGruppe thoughts...


"you either get it....or you don't".....quote from the Gruppemeisters...

Yeah this was a touch beligerent from me...but this topic is close to me heart....

regards,
Eric
67 911S (2,270 lbs with 240 hp 2.7RS twin plug on aluminum case)

Oh boy Eric........

Get ready for the feedback on that !!!!! :)

911S Purist
 

The R Gruppe won't let me in...................

PS Go check out my comments under Porsche Enthusiast in the Off Topic Board.

Re: 911S Purist
 

I see that as a mark in RGruppes favor!

Argh. You're mocking me into this. :)

Eric,

Your attitude represents the part of the RGruppe crowd that needs a better understanding of sports purpose 911's.

It's not about simple performance. It's about rawness and lightweight and power to weight and sacrificing creature comforts and stiff suspension and high revs and noises transmitting into the cabin and tossing the car and catching it and being race-bred and driving it like you're one of the few who knows how.

The character of the later RS models does live up to these principles. Note the RS America does not.

That's the part that many RGruppies "don't get". I think alot do, but many who are brainwashed into thinking that this magic ended in '73.

John, (Orbmedia) still winning friends and influencing people I see. ;)

A lighter car can brake faster and corner faster, no matter what the power to weight ratio is - hey, I think I get it!

Sigh.....

Apples and oranges....

No, I don't need a better understanding...I'm perfectly comfortable with Sports Purpose 911's of the era that the "clubs" that I want to be part of pertain to.....EARLY 911's....isn't that what we are talking about????

If I buy a later 911SC/Carrera/993 then I may look into, or be concerned about the later cars....but till then.....

My attitude about my cars is just fine thankyou.....

I'm glad you enjoy your cars (really!).....good for you!

And why "should" an RGruppe member care?

And I am, by the way, multi model oriented.....I just choose earlier rather than later.

regards,
Eric
56 Speedster
59 A coupe
63 Coupe
67 911S w 2.7
67 911S stock (so far....)
69 911S w 2.7
71 911E stock

Grasshopper
 

If U don't have to roll the window down with a crank, it's not a Sports car anymore.......It has morphed into something different. It has changed it's purpose.......it is nolonger what it orginally set out to be. Tastes change over time as well as perceptions about how things are to be used. Things in the long run tend to be cyclical and more or less return to where they started from.

Nobody in the R Gruppe sneered at my power windows, either.

yeah, but that's because you swapped the original 2.2amp window motor for a 3.6amp VarioCrank monster.

Since this thread obviously has the RGruppe’s attention, how many of you SO. CA RGruppe guys are planning to join us for Big Bear Run II on the 17th?

P.S. Nostatic is looking for driving lessons and I could use a some myself. Any takers?

Later RS models have wind-up windows.

Listen, it's clear you guys don't know much about 911's made after '73 and for some reason don't have any interest in exploring this world. And that's fine. But as a result you poo-poo the whole lot which makes you seem stubborn and single-minded. If you're happy with that then fine we can go our separate ways. I won't offend you by seeming like I'm trying to teach you something.

And your experience with actually driving later sports purpose 911's is limited, so again you poo-poo the whole lot as being heavy and unresponsive without even understanding that these later RS cars are faster out of most corners for more reasons than just lightweight can explain.


I think this is a silly debate I've gotten involved in anyway. I love early 911's more than you. :)

The aesthetic preference that Curt briefly alluded to is, I guess, equally as important as power to weight ratios. They just look cool. Simple.

On Pre-1974 911's
 

... I know why they are the best - I own one.

That in itself is reason enough for me.

I have driven an SC, and I have driven an 87 Carrera. They are both great cars, both have more power and potentially response. Potentially - because they didn't belong to me and I didn't drive them like I stole them.

They just don't feel the same, I like mine better. I may not have the horsepower and refinements of my younger brethern, but my car has plenty of horsepower to satisfy my limited driving abilities at this time. Once I become a better driver, I dream of transplanting a later model motor (and suspension changes, and...) but that's a ways down the road yet.

On R Gruppe attitude...

The attitude of an RGruppe car is something I can really aspire to, to me these cars are the ultimate. Fun, exciting, stimulating in their modifications and vibrancy. Someday, my car will be fit to assemble with these extraordinary examples of mechanical art.

OTOH, to date I have met with two bonafide RGruppe members, with results on both that have convinced me that ordinary enthusiasts are better off with them huddling together on their own. I realize that my limited exposure results in too small a population to reach a proper conclusion, and that MY attitude is probably off base from the help provided to this forum by other RGruppers with knowledge they freely share. However life is too short and there are too many roads to drive to waste time in the company the few whose s**t doesn't stink.

The early 911 AX racers held their own a month ago at the San Diego AX. Jim's RSA is awesome too, I like them all.


http://www.pcasd.org/autocross/Ax2002/results020907.shtml
September 7, 2002 Autocross Results

Top 10 Times of the Day

Time Driver------------------------Car
68.88 Grosekemper, Steve---1974 914
69.66 Schmidt, Roland---------1981 911
70.77 Gagen, Mike--------------1969 911
71.72 Wise, Lewis---------------1973 911 T
71.88 Andrews, Dan-------------1973 911 T
72.36 Tweed, Tom----------------1973 911 E
72.78 Ehrman, Bob----------------1985 911
72.97 Clements, Kary-------------1997 993
73.11 Duncan, Jad------------------1988 944 Turbo
73.27 Binford, Jim-------------------1993 911 RSA

i just knew this thread would still be running when i got up this morning.............

OH, PPPPLLLLLEEEAAAAAASSSSEEEEEEE!!!!;)

whats with the argument going on about rgruppe not appreciating newer cars - THEY HAVE THEM AMONG THEM (apparently)!!!

my '86 isn't exactly the most refined car i've ever driven;)

Hi Dr Island I would counter your R Gruppe perception with some big power reality. It gets much more hard core than your version.

Here's the specs on the red 69 I posted before.
Sorry guess this fella opted for the SC flare delete.

Specs:

chassis: 1969 911/912

horsepower: Aprox. 360 hp

acceleration: 0-60 in Aprox. 3.8 secs

weight: 1800 lbs. dry

body: Carbon Fiber and Aluminum

brakes: Factory 930 (front and rear)

springs: Factory RSR Coil Over

wheels: 911R

Engine:

RSR Configuration, 3.5 liter84 Carrera block, factory 935 twin plug distributor, Andial slide valve injection, factory 906/910 cams, RSR lightweight flywheel, Factory RSR clutch pressure plate disc, 914/6 lightweight valve covers, Solid Aluminum motor mounts, RSR style headers, factory sports muffler with enlarged outlets.

Body:

Lexan windows, carbon fiber 911R doors, lightweight epoxy 935 door handles, carbon hood, carbon 911R bumper, 911R engine lid hinges, 911R tailight assembly, RSR front hood straps, factory RS plastic fuel tank, 944 rear wiper motor for front windshield, front air scoop block off, lightweight engine grille, 911R master electric cut-off switch.

Transmission:

Magnesium 915 case, Quafe limited slip diff, 7.31 ring and pinion, hill climb gears, factory oil sprinkler and pump, solid aluminum transmission mounts, AJR lightweight starter motor.

Suspension:

RSR coil over, Titanium rear springs, RSR shock mounts, 20 mm front sway bar, 19mm rear sway bar, 930 rear wheel spacers.

Interior:

Factory 935 Aluminum roll cage (enhanced), Sabek 5-point 2-inch safety belts, 10,000-rpm Tach, 300km speedo, VDO clock block off, 911R mirror, carbon dash, carbon sun visors, lightweight quarter windows, custom windshield retainers, Prototipo steering wheel, 911R style aluminum bilk head covers, factory short shift, camera mount, RS Seats

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/slidevalve2.jpg

Hearing an in car video of the the trumpets wot is impressive.
Being chased and chasing it around Cambria back roads was thrilling.
Driving it would be awesome.

From page one From page two And posts in between.

Your post on the auto-x was great too. . . but someone needs to tell that Roland Schmidt guy (81SC) that it ended in 1973 and an SC is not *that* tossable. Boy; some people. . .they just don't "get it." :rolleyes:

Ted - very cool mod'd 911. But have some perspective; even something as mundane as a top-fuel dragster produces 750 HP! . . .per cylinder!
We are all just finding our balance in what machine we have. I have enormous respect for the re-architeching which goes into the R-Gruppe cars and their new found balance. But it's not an "early 911" anymore! Touting it as such, is ridiculous.

This thread, and my point, was; the message the gruppe was sending out was hypocritical. . . and I was not the first to see this.

Can we call this done now?

EDIT: Sphelling

Hey hope you didnt find my replies confrontational, just informative.

So here's one for the SC crowd to lust after.

Here's a pic of the SC, it's had some love R Gruppe style.
Wide body with 18" rims 3.6 non V/R and 930 brakes.

Too bad it's not smog exempt in CA.
Still it is an awesome SC.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/aa1.jpg

U BOYZ ARE LIGHTWEIGHTS
 

There isn't one R Gruppy that doesn't know who I am...I bin bangin heads wid dos Boyz for 2 years now........One of them who shall remain nameless even jested that he was going to bring his gun to Cambria from Orygun. My comment in return was coming by way of Stockton. They didn't seem to like that comment.

Now I am bangin heads wid everybody who has a Porsche thats post 1973. I personally think times changed and the P cars morphed into something other than ba!!s to the wall no frills Sports Cars. Now John your right I havn't followed everything Porsche has done and form time to time they come out with a model thats a throwback to the Good ole days. But honestly the greater part of their production has been more Pimped out Yuppie Mobile than Ba!!s to the wall no frills Sports Car. TIMES HAVE CHANGED, people want something different than no frills. (Until recently but are they really no frills, the Boxster has AC).

Another point which I have repeated so many times on another P Board that I can recite it in my sleep is that in late 60's early 70's to get a car that braked, handled and had performance one literally had to buy a European car. American cars didn't cut it. Today a Accura or Lexus will give U all those things with a warranty. So Porsche has to really be giving a customer something above and beyond to justify the price. Quite frankly for the extra juice your getting vs the price and USEABILITY of that performance it ain't cost effective. We do have speed laws in the USA and lawyers who love to sue insurance companies. But there still is the cachet of the Porsche name and Yuppies who are willing to part with the money for that name. Also an ancillary point is why screw around with a 30 year old sports car when the Accura will give so much with that warranty.

The answer for me is that the Early 911S's are Classic cars that can still be considered modern with regards to overall performance. I don't need to increase my HP or handling characteristics what a stock 911S has to offer is plenty good enough for me. But than again thats my opinion and I could be wrong but I'm not.

Oh great......

So when do we descend into BBQ Pizza, Black Label Partages, PorK Chops and your favorite type of China?

?????

He,he..........

I'm a bit strange. I LIKE to read AX results and I'm a 914 snob.....there's an oxymoron.:D Looks like the early 9elebens did pretty well.

I don't know what the GruppeR boys do with those lovely cars, but I hope they do something other than canyon running/public road terrorizing.

IMO, if one is going to build a hot rod, one needs to take it out and beat the crap out of it (in a safe venue) to see if holds up. Otherwise, it's all show and no go.....the R word pops into mind here.

No descent if there's no reply.

So JP...
 

"are you implying that if we (Rgruppe) don't track our cars we are charletons""....if so, don't even go there pal.

What does JP know? He drives a NARP after all.

Oops...

Boy, Glenn, you sure know how to stir a pot - of course you did get some help from RLJ, John, Tabs, and JP, among others (including myself I suppose).

Hypocritical is a pretty hard term when generalized to a group as large as the R Gruppe. The R Gruppe started with early 911s with sports purpose modifications in keeping with the times these cars were built (Cris' '69S and my '72S fit this model), later it morphed into a hot-rod direction and included transplants and carbon fiber cars as well (which my '72T/RS fits into). We also have members with essentially bone stock 911s.

As far as driving, we have several competitiion drivers among us, including vintage racers and driving instructors from various clubs. So, we are much broader based than many realize. When someone assumes in a post that none of us has driven the later cars, just because we prefer the early 911, they are making a mistake and appear foolish. I have leased a 2000 Boxster S since new and as an instructor have driven almost every model of 911 built - I just like the early 911 better.

Here a pic of the wide body 914-6 version, Steve does tend to dominate the local AX events. Although soon we should see a 73 911 wide body 3.8 that might keep it interesting.

One for the 914 fans.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/914-6.jpg

Agree, the track racing is a lot of fun! I think the R Gruppe guys would have a blast if they scheduled a day at the track sometime.
Maybe join a touring club event at Button Willow or Thunder Hill someday?

When I Say U Do
 

Reply or not it doesn't matter....... you've allready made the descent.SmileWavy

Okay, Randy; I wasn't going to touch this thread again, but for you I'm making the exception. Though it does seem YOU are just stiring the pot-o' hypocrisy, yourself with statements like "I just like the early 911 better"

C'mon, what is "early 911" about the vario-ram intake sitting on your white 911? -for example.
Sheese; hypocrisy is so thick you couldn't cut it with an R-Gruppe splitter. :D

I'll tell ya, I wish I didn't bring up any of this "RGruppe stuff" . .. especially now that you guys have the support of Tabs and Brian993!

Oh......now I get it. Steve brings a gun to a knife fight.

This post looked like too much work yesterday (back from a week's holiday and trying to decide what to read from 10 pages of posts...).

But today is another day and I am already bored again at work. So guess what - I have an opinion on this.

I've got a '69 and a '75. Both narrow body, one with what my mother would call "unfortunate looking" bumpers...

The major similarities are:

- they weigh about the same
- they look the same to 99% of the population
- they brake and handle similarly (before I messed with the '69)
- they are black
- they will rust if uncared for ;)

The major differences are:

- the '69 sounds better
- the '69 looks better
- the '75 goes better (before I messed with the '69)
- the '75 has better (but less aesthetically pleasing to me) seats
- better gearbox in the '75
- much better brakes in the '75, but not relevant to what I'm getting at 'cause it is a '69T issue only
- power windows, sound deadening still in the car, blah blah blah - not relevant

So... the '69 is basically better only because it looks better (obviously opinion) and sounds better (no arguments please). And here is what I reckon R-Gruppe is about (this is neither entirely a compliment or a criticism)...

... basically the 65-73 cars look good and sound good, but only a select few actually go well ----> Porsche is the ultimate Mecano car, so you CAN mix and match parts to get the best of both worlds. And people do.

My '69 now has pretty much SC/Carrera mechanicals and suspension, except the induction which is more or less MFI. Lets not talk about the interior (grubby stock 69T). Although I don't think about it much, I effectively have a Carrera with (what I believe to be) a pretty nose and tail and no sound deadening. And a proper ;) induction system.

So what have I accomplished? I now have a car which meets my aesthetic goals, which goes like stink, but most importantly, it is MY iteration of the 911. For me, the R-Gruppe gives the appearance of a collection of guys who have their own iterations of the 911 with a relatively common theme (ie early cars).

The fact that this form of 911 also coincides with arguably the greatest era of 911 motorsport competition gives those modifying them plenty of scope and guidance ---> in many ways motor-racing was pretty primitive back in the late 60s/early 70s and many of those specifications are achieveable for a road car today.

As a counter point the 935 doesn't offer much for an SC or Carrera owner!!

Rather like Todd in an earlier post, I'm running out of steam on this one. But I've figured out how to finish it. Either you get my post or you don't. I don't care - I forgot I was supposed to be working for 15 minutes :D :D :D

Matt - yeah, I should get a twin pipe sport muffler and some HUGE trumpets for scaring little children... I'd probably squeeze another 10hp too...

Genn, I've always said I like the blue '72S better than the white '72T/RS -maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm alot of things, but I'm not a hypocrite...

. . .R-Tue . . .. :D

Just Raz'n ya Randy.SmileWavy

[reconsidered and deleted snide remark that did not contribute anything useful]