RGruppe; Atitude; or not
 

Some recent comment on the "Good Name For An East Coast Early Porsche Club" got me confused as to what RGruppe is.

That thinking is in shrap contrast to earlier R Gruppe words. . .

There certainly are conflicting messages as to the RGruppe theme.

So which is it? Or, at least, what's the outside perception of the RGruppe. (This means RGruppe members stay out of the poll.)

Secrets...
 

We are sworn not to reveal these things to SCWDP members...it could comprimise our postion in the Porsche community..:D

I'd like that question answered too. I'm not sure if my '72, with it's Cabriolet conversion and C2 tail and rockers would fit in. Still has the early front end. Looks like John Walker's '73 Speedster, but a Cab instead. (And no paint yet.)

I always wonderd if it had to be period correct, or if it just had to have certain aspects of the early car.

I did not vote in the poll, but I would like to offer some insight into "our group". I cannot speak for Cris or Freeman, but I have been to Cambria for all the R Gruppe events and count many of the members as my friends. My take on the R Gruppe is that a bunch of early 911 guys with sport mods on their cars get together informally to drive with passion and talk with passion about something that means alot to them. Ideally the cars would have all the "attitude" and the owners would not. For the most part, I believe this is true, but we are human and we do tend to personalize our relationships with our cars, for better or worse. We have no intention to dominate the world! Actually the opposite may be true - but I do not set policy, I just enjoy it for what it is and don't analyze it too much.

Tyson, you and your car are welcome as far as I'm concerned, as are '74 Carreras and modified 914s!

I have to admit I was a bit surprised at RLJ's post in the other thread, because although there is indeed the "occasional" p-car of "non early 911" decent, i.e. 356, 914 etc...My understanding of their inclusion in RGruppe is based upon Herr Gruppmeisters self proclaimed, and rightly so, "powers of executive decision".

The few non-early 911's and other P-cars that are regognized as being part of RGruppe are very much in the minority, so much so that one definitely notices their presence...but they all share that certain look.....and are all welcome.

Personally, I feel within the parameters of what I understand Rgruppe to be, "period correctness" does count to a certian degree...that's my main reason why I'm still in the middle of back dating all the "updates" the previous owner did to my '73:) But it isn't the "end-all" in determining anything, and there are a few late cars running with us all the time.

On the otherhand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, When one first finds out about the RGruppe, the realization that it is a bunch of guys who are nuts about early hot rod 911's comes with little investigation. So, knowing that up front, if "I" wanted to be part of that group, and this is just me mind you, I would want my car to be viewed as one that would "fit in" to the existing parameters, no matter how loose they are percieved to be...but again, that just me.

RLJ is absolutely correct in saying that we leave our ego's in the car. Let the car itself give off attitude....and that creedo really has worked well...in fact the times I've walked past RLJ's monster 911 I've found myself looking down at the ground to avoid "eye" contact with it...major 'tude comin' off his ride !! ;)

The thread which the quotes above were extracted in part from, also had an excellent post by Rick Cabell, who is a very highly respected RGruppe member and I personally feel he really it put to the point, short & sweet. I took the liberty of copying it for use here:

"The Rgruppe is primarily a group of enthusists who are not into 100% accurate restoration like the PCA concour events. A 912 body with a 935 engine is just fine. The club focuses on the 65-73 911 cars. S, T or E. Makes no differance"

That's it really, No more, no less. :)

btw...the quote of what I said at the start of this thread was chopped & diced to fit the slant of the poll, so in all fairness if anyone wants to read my post in it's entirty, including my appology to anyone I may have offended at the time, please go to the "Good name for an east coast early porsche club" thread, page two.


and remember, it's all good !!

cheers!

Just as I am here quoting a snippet, for brevity and highlight of pertinent content, the prior quotes where done. Please let me know if I truncated your post in a way that misleads, in your opinion.

Beyond that, I v'e got to ask; are carbon-fiber, splitters & Vario-ram "Period Correct"?

. .and whats with those fancey opening qtr-windows? ;)

If the cars have the attitude (probably decked from rear to front) and the owners try to minimize their attitude (probably up from down) and everything else is up for grabs - that seems ok to me - It's when an owners attitude takes on altitude that I get nervous.

Island...er, Dr. Island to me, I presume: (rolleyes) R we having fun yet? Gosh, I LOVE you SC guys...I really do. Hell, once...in a far away galaxy, long long ago, I actually thought of adding SC flares to the rear fenders of my car. Whaz da problem? BTW, I feel left out. You didn't choose to snippet quote me. Turn off the radio & TV, I suspect you've been around too many of the current political ads. Paul (also R Gruppe member #15)

There! . . .feel better? ;)
Though, I'll have to give more attention to TV/Radio to understand why you would come to that conclusion.

BTW, it's a multi-select poll; you can "vote" on more than one option. . . .I didn't want to limit the options.
For that matter, if anyone thinks the poll gives nothing but false options, please post the better versions.

My experience with R-Gruppe: "No egos" fits the bill perfectly. Just guys who like hot-rodding Porsches and talking about them. They even welcomed my 912 to the group.

You’re a good Kraut JR.

Why are all the SC owners DRs?
My perception of the whole bogus DR deal is increased emphasis on owner attitude, perhaps with less emphasis on the P car itself.

Would I create a poll for this perception, not likely.

Some people own Porsches because of the associated image. Some own *despite* the image. Luckily, there is room for both. But I think I can speak for most of the good doctors when I say one key to life is not taking it toooooo seriously. Well, that and "evil rules." muhahaha.

Besides, SCWDP members have lots of *altitude*. We're like, totally high. Ya know? DUDE!

Before we get carried away here, I do not like being around people with "no egos". The huge lobotomy scar is very off-putting. I have attended a couple of rgruppe events, they seemed like normal people to me. ;) And yes, mostly friendly and willing to BS about the cars, (which are spectacular), very little of the stuck-up vibe around other race/show car events. :cool:

Us SC guys may not have as much attitude, but we sure do have latitude. We have guys in Northern Europe, to me - with the lowest latitude I guess, in the South Pacific.

I feel a Jimmy Buffet song coming on...

48 answers...
 

It's interesting that there are 48 "votes" and 14 posts..albeit, some would prefer not to comment, but why is it that some internalize their opinions but won't resolve their conflictions ?? this board, of ALL boards, is not one those "pussy foot" diplomatic, sound off places. I, seriously have NOT met an Rgruppe member who thinks that "he's the man"...I have met some PCA, car-show folks that will, without even asking your name, tell you that the Porsche crest on your wheels should point directly at your valve stem ???? WTF.... is that all about ??

I dunno Curtis. I've always thought those kind of people (and believe me they are not exclusive to Porsches or even cars, for that matter) were kind of nervous about their position in the pecking order - so if they know what's "correct" and they do that "correct" thing - they'll be ok. I suppose they want you to be "correct" and ok, as well. Personally, I like the crests to point to the four corners of the world, representing the four great forces on the planet. ;)

curtisaa, you bring up some of the same curiosities that go through my mind as well. Though, the whole intent of the poll was to to gauge what outside people (R-World) think of the RGruppe; not resolve their conflictions.

So give the those who want to remain anonymous a break. Besides, if you were a "pussy foot" diplomat, you too would want to hide your lobotomy scar. :D (that was funny; speeder) . . .also, no one is complaining about the RGruppe guys who voted, in an attempt to skew the perception.

was that too diplomatic? . . .is my scar showing ? :rolleyes: :D

Pot stirrer.

Island...
 

I know quite a few Rgruppe boyz in your backyard....RLJ, I suppose is very close..I would guess, U mite be lookin' in your rear view mirror on your next cruise in your SC...;) :cool:

Ah, Curt...Island is just havin' some fun here. Besides, his mirrors won't be much help. Should Iris the slut & Island's SC ever be on the same stretch of blacktop? Taillights...that's all Island will see. And those, only briefly...:eek:

Island, you're as bad as I am.

So some people get together because they like hot rodding early cars ('67-'73)... and because they proclaim this preference and organize a club around it, they're accused of attitude? They seem open enough, willing to talk about what they've done with their cars. But don't fool yourself into believing that an SC or 993 follows their vision.

If some owners started having get togethers for turbos/930s, would you feel the need to fit in there? Of course you'd be welcome, but obviously out of place when people are talking about K27 vs Kokeln turbos, intercooler upgrades, and 4 speed trannies...

Sheesh. Its not RGruppes fault that you don't get it. Start an SC club or a heavy bumper, flared 911 club and leave them to their early car affliction. :)

Quoted fm Ted:

"Pot Stirrer..."

L O L !!!!!!

:D

For an alternative view of "no-ego" R-Gruppe members, you could do worse than this read through some of the modest and thoughtful posts on this thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59726&perpage=20&pagenu mber=1

Its doubtful that these posts are representative of the group as whole...

- roGER <smiling sweetly>

ROgerk, repeat after me: "serenity now....serenity now.... serenity now...." -- Curt

Let it go, roGerk, unless you want to "go again".

Dr. Island, varioram is not "period correct". As RSupdate explained, the look is of an R Gruppe car is usually period correct but the mechanicals are often not.

Don't you just love the human condition? ;)

well, i thought they were all older cars, with big/powerful lumps, tastefully done like jack o's.

i have not met a bigger bunch of snobs (one or two were ok) than the pcgb track day i attended last year (probably 'cause my cars too old) - f****d if i care. can't be any worse than that.

sounds like someone is feeling left out ;)

The defensive posture of some the Gruppe members reminds me of the crap widebody911 took when he tested the eRam. -- Don’t go shooting the messenger!
For the most part I’ve held back on my thoughts, to allow the polling go on unskewed. Still, some will create the reality they would like me to have. . . as Randy Wells states -Don't you just love the human condition?

How this started:
A year or so ago, I intended to compliment a mod someone did to their 911, by saying “whoa, that’s cool . . .kinda R-Gruppe.” Well the owner surprised me and snapped back (some not so nice things about some selected R-Gruppe members . . .ones I had barely read on the board)
Now all the R-guys I had met are just fine, warm inviting enthusiast; and yet as I bounced around the West coast I heard repeated slights to the R-Gruppe.

These slights (and worse) did not sit right with my first take on the gruppe. The conflict sat in the back of my mind, as I read (being more observant) various posts of group members.

What I’ve concluded is there is there is indeed some serious hypocrisy.
Also, everyone of the poll questions I put up is representative of what the R Gruppe projects. . . . It is a mixed bag. Some are lacking “attitude”, AND yes, they are perceived as snobs by a good percentage. duh

I didn’t drive these sentiments; R-Gruppe members did!

The posts:
This idea about “R-Gruppe members don’t have attitudes. . .just our cars do”
Peh-leeeaase.
Imagine if I tried to pull-off . . .
“I am island911; I don’t have “attitude” . .. just my SC does. Having an SC, I belong to a tight knit secret society call the SCWDP; which by it’s very nature forbids members to ever make statements with their tongue in their cheek” :rolleyes:
Now if that didn’t raise an eyebrow, or two, what will. . . .perhaps a Poll? :D

The R-Gruppe cars:
-SC Aluminum trailing arms
-964 Retractable tails and bigger
-930 & 993 brakes
-Carbon-fiber body panels (because they’re light . . .not rust)
-SC flairs
-930 & 951 Fuchs,
-twinturbo sportseats.
-935/Ruf aero mirrors
- 993 (the grand-daddy of all the “tweaks”) powerplants.
-Put all of this into an early shell, sprinkle with chant “we have no attitude,” and now you are ready to stake claim to the superior merits belonging to an exclusively “early 911” gruppe.

Now all the above things are very cool, except one! . . .can you guess?

"feelin' good"............
 

...now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout......let it go.

Doctor have you no patience?

Concur, let it go.

Must be those SC flares.....yup that has to be it.

'cos Rgruppe cars only use RS flares....:D



Sorry......I just couldn't resist !!!

"Only" ?!
. . .well, maybe Only RS flares for a purist, like yourself. ;)

This is too easy. :p

The R-Gruppe guys remind me of the old time die hard hot rodders- basically a period correct car, maybe a little flash, and a ton of performance mods. Sort of like the die hard Harley guys that if you ask what year the bike is they have to explain each part of the bike. The R-Gruppe cars are the ultimate P-car sleepers. Very cool group of cars indeed.

SCWDP guys generaly follow the same lines as the R-Gruppe guys, but appear to use their P-car as a daily driver. They just can't go as HP wild because of smog regulations.

Each individual of these group, members of this board, members of the PCA or POC, Early S Registry, etc, have the Porsche driving experience Attitude (capital "A").

As for the snub your nose "attitute", the only p-car drivers IMHO that have "attitude" are those who buy the car for its status. Nonetheless these are the guys who are essential to the Attitude (Capital "A") because they suffer the sales depriciation and provide parts cars.

I think it's too loosely-organized a group to have a consistent, or even prevailing, attitude.

It's a club that focuses on 65-73 cars, which are (generally) modified for 'sport purpose' use, and (usually) modified along period-correct lines. Within the group, there are people who are devoted to preserving early cars (S's and RS's and the like) in the same manner as the PCA might. There are also guys who focus on taking non-collectible cars and building them up to specs that resemble (or exceed) the best of what the factory was producing back then. Still another subset (including myself) happily adds later motors and other technology to the earlier cars, making an early-looking 911 with some of the guts from later models.

If I had to say what the largest of these factions was, my guess is that it would be the guys who take 911T's (and the like) and build them into mostly period-correct RS clones (and the like).

Guys who go crazy for the new pieces aren't very common in the R Gruppe -- 3.2 and 3.6 swaps are a pretty small minority. 2.7 RS-spec motors are much more common. I think there's only one (maybe two?) 993-swaps in the whole group.

The attitude part has pretty much nothing to do with the group as its organized, and everything to do with the members who belong to it. That's inevitable with just about any broadly-defined group.

This is an interesting issue. As the former owner of a '66 912 (Greg Fordahl's old NWR PCA autocross champion) a '69 911T with a bunch of S stuff, and a '74 911S (which was more fun than the '69 was), I have a problem with the attitude (even though there supposedly is none) that stops the inclusion of fun 911s to '73, even though the owners are more than willing to upgrade to every other advance made in the 911 line since then.

Then there's this quote:

How the early 911 came to represent Porsche's "original ideas" is completely beyond me. You've merely picked an arbitrary body style amongst all Porsche bodystyles (and not even the original one) that YOU happen to like (and there's nothing wrong with that. I happen to like it, too) and then go off on how that's the only correct Porsche bodystyle. That's just as wrong headed as the street rodders that proclaim the '32 Ford to be the only true hot rod. Or the original purists that state the 356 is the only true Porsche, and the 911s (even the early ones) are just overweight pretenders.

I think that the R Gruppe may have had some problems in their early days with those outside the group not fully understanding what they were about. I for one, battled against some of the R- Gruppers on a different message board. My problem was that I was under the impression that these guys took straight early 911 S's and slant-nosed and Gamballa flared them. When I read the article about them in Excellence, I sat there and felt like a total dumba$$ because I agreed with their thinking.

I still think the perception outside the Gruppe needs a little work. I have a good friend who writes for two of the major Porsche magazines and he wanted to do another article on them and their cars. A friend of his asked about membership into the R Gruppe and was questioned in a way that tried to determine his worthiness as an R Gruppe member. My writer friend thought that this was very arrogant and exclusive. I tried to explain (as a non R Grupper would) that they weren't being snobs, but were just trying to keep their Gruppe focused. Another R Gruppe story may be on the horizon, and the R Gruppe really should have the writers RS street/track car as a member.

Since my arguing days against the R Gruppers, I have built (yet another) RS clone with an MFI'd 2.9L. Several of my friends are members but I have not applied for membership yet. I am punishing myself in non R Gruppe purgatory until I feel I have suffered enough non R Gruppe membership to pay for my earlier ignorance. I am trying to finish saying my 50,000 Hail Ferry's.

JR I have a serious admission to make.
I bought a bi level wing for high speed track events only.
I do prefer the duck tail nostalgic look.
R Grp and bi level wings, not a good combination.

Quote -964 Retractable tails and bigger
This could be seriously damaging to R Grp’s image!
R Grp needs to hire an image consultant if this represents public perception!

I'll offer a data point. For German Autofest, I hooked up with Curt and Sherwood for the drive from LA to Ventura. My stock SC was welcome, and in fact was free to park in the semi-official R-Gruppe/EarlyS area. The only concession I was asked to make was to move over one spot so two "sister" early cars could park next to each other.

The only tricky part was keeping up with the boyz when a new TT decided to play on the freeway. Sure, my car doesn't have the same cajones, but it did OK, reaching the *legal speed limit* just fine. After all, it is a Porsche. They all are. Hmmm...there might be a point in there somewhere...

My car had its 964 wing on for the 2001 R Gruppe meeting at Cambria. No one said anything negative to me about it. A couple of guys wanted to know how I had wired it.

I switched to the ducktail the next year, because I like the ducktails-in-a-row picture they do at the Cambria event.

In my experience, they're a pretty open and accepting group of guys. The 65-73 thing is arbitrary, but it's what they choose to focus on. I've never heard anyone in the group knock the later models. When a 993TT showed up at Cambria 2001, a lot of guys lined up to look at it.