Brain Trust? - Modelling the cost of remodelling

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by javadog

When you say you might change the windows, or not, that's the kind of thing you need to decide before asking how much. In my case, that was about $100k.

^see that? that right there is useful info. I am not a general contractor. I have spent some money doing projects on the two homes that I currently own, so I have a decent idea how much things cost, but I've never done a massive remodel with new kitchens/baths/rewires, etc. Fact is that the scope of what we end up doing is adjustable. I'd like to start with the assumption that we do everything, including windows but perhaps we don't have to. I do not have the luxury of time here, so "ballpark" of some sort is the best I can do. No opportunity to get bids from multiple renovation contractors prior to making a firm offer. The market is stupid here and we are (for the 2nd time during this home search) in a "Last and Best" situation where the seller has multiple bids and is asking for best offer in terms of price, but also encouraging bidders to drop inspection and appraisal contingencies, and pay cash.

[Shadetree930]

Depending on finishes and appliances ... my thumbnail estimate is 400k.

We did a 1930's stone house once. A small window was in excess $1,000 each, the larger windows ... fuggitaboudit. But if you are going to do it ... do it right.

Add in 'close to NYC', best county and windows? $500k should get'r done.

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by Shadetree930

But if you are going to do it ... do it right.

you know me Shade. I don't do half @$$ed. If I use the same purchase price to upgrade cost ratio as my 930, I will be in huge trouble

[Shadetree930]

Be careful... Sometimes we let our emotional attachment to things get in the way of the value proposition ...

[look 171]

People ask me these questions (the how much without much info but new kitchen, baths and …) all the time, so I will try my best to answer them to within 100k in your situation. That's a reasonable # since I can't actually see the home. Construction pricing is sky high on both coasts especially the big cities but I bet they are comparable, and the differences shouldn't be much besides having to deal with logistics on getting materials to the job site in a place like NYC.

A experience (and good) contractor should be able to estimate where potential structural problems maybe on older homes without opening up the walls based on the condition of the exterior walls, sags on the floors etc… Those are the watch it budgets I have for my clients before we remove or sign anything. This way they know what to expect should we find issues down the road. I found no home owners do not like those unexpected surprises. For example, rotted subfloor around toilets and tub or shower is almost a given on older homes (50 years or older). its usually not in my bid, but they know damn well the bad new will be coming once we tear into it.

[look 171]

Oh, 930 owners? We will get along just fine.

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by look 171

Construction pricing is sky high on both coasts especially the big cities but I bet they are comparable, and the differences shouldn't be much besides having to deal with logistics on getting materials to the job site in a place like NYC.

The logistics part isn't a big deal at all (and one of the reasons I like this property). Imagine a single family home, midtown NYC views, 10 minute transit bus ride to Port Authority Bus terminal in midtown Manhattan, with a 2 car detached garage and a driveway (so one can accomodate something like 6 or more passenger vehicles). That's what we're talking about here...damn near the Real Estate equivalent of a unicorn. There are exactly 2 other unicorns on the market right now in the same neighborhood. One is massively overpriced. They just dropped 500k but still about 500k too high IMO. The other I have viewed and spoken to the agent. It might come down to a price that is in reality-land, but even so the house is massively larger than we want or need - 6000 sqft including 1500 sqft finished basement.

Been having lots of conversations and gaining comfort in my 200sqft estimate as at the high end of ranges. We have until next Tuesday to make our "Best/Final" offer.

[look 171]

Well, now we know. A general remod price price needed for best and final. I see why its in the 3-400k range for a remod. Even if your place is only 4000 sq.', then the 300+ range sounds about right plus other misc. fees and other end finishes.

[Paul_Heery]

I can't add much to what has been contributed already. Take the advice provided here and make sure that you build in an adequate contingency fund when making your estimations.

Also, everyone always expects that they are doing a remodel to create their dream house and that they will live in it forever. But, that is most often not the case. You are going to need to add up the purchase price plus the cost of the improvements then determine if you could get that back if you needed to sell in a few years.

You have peaked my interest. Is the house next door also for sale for about $1 million more?

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by Paul_Heery

You have peaked my interest. Is the house next door also for sale for about $1 million more?

That's the spot. The house for sale next door is over 2x larger in living space, and also sits on a triple lot (75x100) as opposed to a double lot (50x100). Beautifully renovated and essentially brand new since the current owner never moved in. Has a lot of appeal, and very little in the way of surprises since the reno is already done. On the other hand its just stupid-big for just two people and a couple dogs.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by jwasbury

That's what we're talking about here...damn near the Real Estate equivalent of a unicorn. There are exactly 2 other unicorns on the market right now in the same neighborhood. One is massively overpriced. They just dropped 500k [/b]but still about 500k too high IMO[/b].

That's a [/b]huge[/b] amount of money.

Don't ask hail-mary questions on the internet.
Get serious with the pros. Throw them a bill or two or three at least.

Big life decisions to be made.

Originally Posted by jwasbury

We have until next Tuesday to make our "Best/Final" offer.

Ask yourself three questions:
1). Why haven't all the insiders and the sharks bought the place already?

2). How committed are you, AND YOUR WIFE, to living in a dirty as f*** remodel project?
Really.....
This affects your daily job. Your commute. Your relationship. Your present comfortable way of life.

3). Most importantly, how economically stable is the area?

Will you eventually get an economic return on the area if times change for the very worst?

Will you and your spouse be comfortable in that house and neighborhood many years from now regardless?

[Paul_Heery]

Originally Posted by jwasbury

That's the spot. The house for sale next door is over 2x larger in living space, and also sits on a triple lot (75x100) as opposed to a double lot (50x100). Beautifully renovated and essentially brand new since the current owner never moved in. Has a lot of appeal, and very little in the way of surprises since the reno is already done. On the other hand its just stupid-big for just two people and a couple dogs.

I would suggest that you find out who was the GC on the remodel next door. Then, see if they can give you a ballpark estimate to do the renovations on the house that you are looking at quickly. If nothing else, it will provide another data point and perspective.

BTW, that is a great neighborhood and marvelous views. Good luck.

[jwasbury]

John, I appreciate your concern but please give me a slice of credit. You think this is the only place I am asking questions? I ask here because I have seen a good range of experience/wisdom displayed by regulars.

Your location says midwest...not sure where but you also need to calibrate to the market. Everything worth living in is expensive here. The home I will eventually sell in Jersey City is up 80% in value since I purchased it 10 years ago. That's not a guess. 2 of my neighbors just sold their homes at +80%. They sold quickly and there was even a bidding war in one case. That's good for me as a seller, but sucks for me on the buyside. I'm not looking at going in bigger than the current value of what I've got - its a lateral move of sorts in $ terms. Quieter, more mature neighborhood. Our current neighborhood has gone 100% hip. We're getting a bit too old for the scene. We want a porch and some rocking chairs so we can yell "get off my lawn" to the young'ns.

Real-estate that is a stupid easy commute to NYC will always be a valuable commodity in high demand. Unless the effluent really hits the impeller...and then I think resale is probably the least of our concerns. We will be wanting to stockpile guns ammo, fuel and non perishable foodstuffs in that case.

to your specifics:
1) house hasn't even been on the market for a week.
2) not going to live in the house for the ugliest part of the remodel - I can afford to buy and carry the cost while still maintaining my current residence. Commute from prospect is equal to or better than current commute
3) economic stability = 10 minutes from NYC job market.

the stress of the whole project process absolutely has me concerned. the contractor joke: "renovate a house, lose a spouse" believe you me I don't take it lightly.

Originally Posted by john70t

That's a [/b]huge[/b] amount of money.

Don't ask hail-mary questions on the internet.
Get serious with the pros. Throw them a bill or two or three at least.

Big life decisions to be made.


Ask yourself three questions:
1). Why haven't all the insiders and the sharks bought the place already?

2). How committed are you, AND YOUR WIFE, to living in a dirty as f*** remodel project?
Really.....
This affects your daily job. Your commute. Your relationship. Your present comfortable way of life.

3). Most importantly, how economically stable is the area?

Will you eventually get an economic return on the area if times change for the very worst?

Will you and your spouse be comfortable in that house and neighborhood many years from now regardless?

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by peteremsley

gotcha. still a lot of wonga.

exactly. Mega wonga.

Originally Posted by look 171

I never over run my jobs. On my contract, it specifies that there is a guarantee maximum price unless there are changes, and there always are, and hidden issues the none of us can see. If I exceed the Guarantee Max Price, I pay out of my pocket to complete the job. I have to do that only one time.

How big is the house? More info is needed to get remotely close to getting a ball park number. Since its NYC, getting materials and parking maybe an issue and it should factored into the estimate. Planning with your contractor will be the best thing you can do. Then do it some more. On a job like this, request a rough time line and try and stick to it as close as possible. Lots of residential contractors make their money by taking on too many jobs but have only a small crew and rely on sub contractors. Subs have other work and that's where things go bad. Wait time cost money, sometime lots of it.

Higher end materials on a kitchen normally run about 70-80K for a typical 3/2 house. Appliances will eat up 20K easy. Baths are 20-50K and it only goes up from there.

My advice is to have some kind of plan to get rough estimates if you do not already have a contractor. From my experience, big contractors or companies "usually" do not provide enough details on higher end remod jobs. Who's doing the design work? Who's providing the details? the more specific, the less problems unless the contractor's is a savvy designer to catch design mistakes if there isn't a designer involved.

I really don't think its a 400k job you have there. But then again, we need a lot more info and the size of the place. Wait, 400k? I'll fly out and do that for you right now. I hope this will help you with your questions.

Want to build a 7,000 sf retail building with drive through in Fresno? An Arco Am/Pm with attached two story office?


Reading through this thread, I think there would be a threshold for me to just say forget it, let the pros take this thing and just run with it. DIY is good for maybe curtains and plumbing fixtures. The enjoyment of life carries a higher value than saving a few % here and there. Seriously, I would probably budget to stay in a nice apartment for a year or two, move stuff out of the house, and move back in when it's done.

[john70t]

jwasbury, sorry to be the reactionary chicken who clucks loudly on the fencepost 24/7.
Those emotional questions need to be addressed first, and it sounded like you were and are hesitant.
(I may not say it the right way, most of the time, but I mean it in the right way.)
It's apparent there is a lot of money potentially involved....

I suggest you get together quickly with Look171. A true pro in the trade.
I assume you have pics of everything for reference.


Generally, I'd say go for it.
If the price is right, and the neighborhood stable, then you will not lose.
Everything can be fixed up over time.

[javadog]

If this is the house I think it is, I'd probably not do as much work to it as you have planned. It doesn't look that bad in the photos and sometimes preserving some of the originality has merit.

JR

[john70t]

My background for reference:

I'm in Ann Arbor, MI.
I bought my house in 2009 for a buck fifty plus plus plus plus.
A quiet neighborhood with perks.
There were other deals in the neighborhood for 50 and 60K. I still kick myself for not going full tilt at the time.
My house needed "work".
We lived out of one small room over the winter with a dog and two cats while the rest was torn apart.
It was not fun. Daily things were difficult.

Now several years later, the rest of this little city is going vertical with skyscrapers and repaving and rebuilding and all that big-city crap.
It is not the town I grew up in.
There are few houses left on the market these days.
Market is tight.

But I was on the pocket change level.
It sounds like you are on a different level of economic commitment.
Plan wisely.

Your job and your spouse are the most important things to consider at this point.

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by javadog

If this is the house I think it is, I'd probably not do as much work to it as you have planned. It doesn't look that bad in the photos and sometimes preserving some of the originality has merit.

JR

Unless they have posted pics of the inside (and they didn't when it was listed for a reason), you're not seeing what I am seeing. The exterior has been well maintained. The interior looks like it hasn't seen love since the Partridge Family was on network TV.

Absolutely we want to preserve original details. We like those...otherwise we wouldn't even consider a house built in 1900. For reference, our "country house" in Pennsylvania was built in 1860.

While I think its entirely possible to spend 500k remodeling this house, I don't think it will be necessary to spend that much to bring it up to a standard that we are comfortable with. However, as you may note from the tag under my screen name, I am the sort that likes to be conservative with the numbers. I make my living from sweating the numbers.

[javadog]

#12?

Jr

[javadog]

This one?