Brain Trust? - Modelling the cost of remodelling
 

Mrs. jwasbury and I are currently looking at buying an older single family home in what is (IMO) the nicest neighborhood in our county (and just minutes from NYC).

The place was occupied by an elderly couple for probably the last 50 years and it hasn't had any major facelift in that time, so it needs almost everything:

entirely new kitchen
renew 2.5 baths
add Central air
upgrade electrical service to 200A, rewire much if not all of the home
gut basement (was used as a doctor's office many decades ago)
some amount of floor plan modification - open the space up a bit
potentially replace windows

The exterior is generally in good condition, doesn't have any serious needs. I wouldn't say this is a total gut renovation job, as there are things that can/should be preserved like beautiful parquet wood floors in the dining and living rooms.

I've been told that $200/sqft is a "safe" estimate for a remodel with high-end finishes (that's $480k) which seems a bit high to me but I suppose its conservative. Based on the cost of lesser jobs I've had done on my current home, my immediate SWAG number for remodelling cost on the target property was $300k. I'd like to hear the collective's experience here.

Thanks...

How many square feet and how old is the home?

In my case, the amount of money and time (I had done most of the work myself) I would have been better off to take the house down to the floor deck and build what I wanted.

Too late for me now and YMMV.

There are many variables at play here. I have done this (have my bath waiting to be tiled as I write!) somewhat continuously since 1993.

First: Are you looking to DIY? Are you looking to have a contractor do it? Somewhere in the middle? You be the GC and hire the subs?

Second - what does the timeline look like? All in one fell swoop or spread this over some years?

Last - will you live in the home while this happens?

Lowest cost is DIY / hire subs over a long time period while you live there. This allows you to move thoughtfully (read lower cost) on things and you won't have additional housing costs. This also means breathing in nasty construction dust, having an angry spouse, etc. If you go this route and stay somewhat moderate in your tastes, you could keep this under $150 - $200K.

Highest cost would be live out of the home and hire a contractor / architect. $200 / sq foot is easy to hit with this model.

Me? Currently have a 3000 sq foot house. I have always been the GC and done some of the work myself. Example? I installed 1000 sq feet of traditional red Oak hardwood. Great exercise! I took three full sized Uhaul loads to the dump of debris. Our remodel included knocking down walls, moved the kitchen and have a high end remodel with HVAC and some excavation expense. Added a bath, bedroom, re-sided, Master Bath and built in closet and theater without increasing the footprint. I just cringed when I added this up but believe me, it is WAY below $200 per square foot. PM me your phone number and I will tell you details if you care. The good news? This is a great way to build your net worth. Remodels force you to shove cash into a fixed asset that you can liquidate at a later time - as in retirement.
Good luck. This is work.

Larry

Read this again if it didn't sink in....

Sounds more like $150K where I live.

How old is the actual structure?
What's the possibility of this residence including asbestos?
What about the plumbing system?

This may not be a cosmetic refresh. You might be replacing the entire infrastructure.

Thanks for responses thus far

^no doubt that is cheaper...but there is no way in hell I would do that. This is a circa 1900 tudor style, and they don't build them like this anymore. Not interested in new construction, in my experience new stuff is of poor quality and is cookie-cutter boring. I feel the same way about cars which is why I love obsolete air cooled Porsches.

The house is currently 2400 sqft of living space (not counting the Dr. office in the basement). We have a a couple options as far as timeline, but what makes most sense to us would be to the remod in phases. 1st phase, get the biggest and most painful stuff done (things you don't want to live around) first. Probably kitchen and baths, central air and wiring updates. Then we can sell our current home, move in and finish off other spaces to our liking over time.

Won't have the bandwidth for much in the way of DIY, so assume GC, and architect are mandatory.

This is like asking how high is up...

Not enough info, too many variables and lots of hidden surprises.

If you want an answer to your question, make a detailed list of exactly what you would do, then start pricing it out, a line item at a time.

JR

Absolutely not just cosmetic. Much of the infrastructure will need updates. As I said, new electrical service is a given. A large amount of rewiring, if not 100% re-wire. Might be same for plumbing...hard to assess. Heating system is serviceable, but no central A/C and we would want to put that in.


on the other hand, not all the "cosmetics" need updates either...example is that something like 1200-1500 sq foot of flooring can be refinished (my preference) rather than torn out and replaced with new.

^the hidden surprises part means that even if you make an itemized list and price them all out, you still can't say that you've eliminated the variables. I will have my GC go through the place and give us an idea, but who knows what they find when they open things up and start work?

There will be no definitive answer possible that has 100% certainty...of that I am 100% certain. My question was: "what's your experience been" and your response is 100% unhelpful, but thanks for chiming in:D

Just did a job like that in Hoboken. Not sure where you are, but without specifics there is no way to get a reasonable quote. You're likely in the right ballpark, but depending on size and selections, you could spend $30k-100k in the kitchen alone.

Best to get multiple quotes and referrals. The biggest headache in NJ with a building of that age is lead & asbestos remediation. Many contractors I know won't touch a building built prior to 1978 because of lead laws.

I will chime in and say I would be a little concerned about a house that hasn't seen a remodel since the 50's-60's. Are there any vinyl tiles present in the house? Are the pipes wrapped with a clothy white insulated fabric? Do the attic and walls contain a fluffy brown blown in type of insulation? All of those could be big ticket items to have abated and removed if they are hot.

Is there any knob and tube Knob-and-tube wiring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in the house or aluminum wire Aluminum wire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ?

Houses that have not kept up with the times usually have a lot of problems that have been pushed to the wayside. Old growth trees with roots in the sewer lines. Musty smelling houses full of old cigarette and tobacco smells. Stains under the carpet from long gone cats and dogs.

Look carefully and do your homework before you invest. It could be a gem in the rough or a money pit waiting to suck up your retirement.

Amen brother!

Baring that... get at least three estimate's... lay them out on the table... take the highest estimate... double it, and that is your cost.

You think I'm kidding, unfortunately I'm not. :(

^this house is in Weehawken. NYC views in the King's bluff area. We will of course get multiple quotes if we move forward. Right now its just trying to ballpark the remod cost so that we can determine how far we are willing to go on purchase price. Buying a project is not my first choice, but we have very specific location and other criteria that we are looking for and there are very few properties that meet them.

Add to that lead paint containment measures.

And to any renovation project, always add 20% overrun to your budget.

We recently did pretty much a whole-house renovation over the course of 4 years. 2000 sq foot bi-level. Not as historical as the home you are looking for, but this is what we did and the approximate costs using a general contractor:
New kitchen $65k
Master bath: $17K
Main bath: $15k
New front entry: $8000
New floors: $2000 (Sand, stain and seal existing hardwood floors & add matching wood floor in kitchen)
New garage slab: $11k
New roof: $7000
New driveway:$5200
Landscaping: $6000
Electrical: upgrade to 200 amp service: $3000

Kitchen:
http://photos1.zillowstatic.com/p_h/...1000000000.jpg
Main bath:
http://photos3.zillowstatic.com/p_h/...1000000000.jpg
Master bath:
http://photos2.zillowstatic.com/p_h/...1000000000.jpg
Front entry:
http://photos1.zillowstatic.com/p_h/...1000000000.jpg
Living room/entry railing:
http://photos1.zillowstatic.com/p_h/...1000000000.jpg

We did go with a lot of high end appliances and extras, but we did it to our liking.

Of course, last year we sold the home, and are now looking for another home -- criteria: something NEWER - so we don't have to do all the renovation work again!

My advise: do it right -- it may cost more overall, but the end result is always better.

I'm in North NJ - If you want the contact info of the folks I used, let me know! Creative Kitchen and Bath in Wayne (Pete Albanese) was the general contractor. They managed these projects well...

Good luck!

-Z-man.

I should have clarified: that included a lot of other stuff including:
- the floors
- taking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room
- electrical
- painting
- upgrading the plumbing

The kitchen and baths were down to the studs renovation.

-Z

We just did a complete remodel of our kitchen, which was late 1960's vintage. I can't really comment on prices since with an even older home the "discovery" gotchas once the demo starts can be exciting and hard on the budget. We had some unexpected issues that came up since the redesign was a complete re-wickering of appliances, etc. You will undoubtedly have many more adventures than we had.

We also did a complete Master bedroom/bathroom redo last year. Same stuff, the normal unknowns.

What I can say is that for both remodels we set up temporary shop in other parts of the house that were isolated from the sturm und drang of demo and construction. Surviving renovation projects is like painting. All the real work is in the prep...make sure you have a comfortable, workable space to live in while the rest of the house is being worked.

This sounds like a great project. One of the guys who works with us has an apartment in a semi high rise near you guys that also faces the city. The view is worth it!!!

I never over run my jobs. On my contract, it specifies that there is a guarantee maximum price unless there are changes, and there always are, and hidden issues the none of us can see. If I exceed the Guarantee Max Price, I pay out of my pocket to complete the job. I have to do that only one time.

How big is the house? More info is needed to get remotely close to getting a ball park number. Since its NYC, getting materials and parking maybe an issue and it should factored into the estimate. Planning with your contractor will be the best thing you can do. Then do it some more. On a job like this, request a rough time line and try and stick to it as close as possible. Lots of residential contractors make their money by taking on too many jobs but have only a small crew and rely on sub contractors. Subs have other work and that's where things go bad. Wait time cost money, sometime lots of it.

Higher end materials on a kitchen normally run about 70-80K for a typical 3/2 house. Appliances will eat up 20K easy. Baths are 20-50K and it only goes up from there.

My advice is to have some kind of plan to get rough estimates if you do not already have a contractor. From my experience, big contractors or companies "usually" do not provide enough details on higher end remod jobs. Who's doing the design work? Who's providing the details? the more specific, the less problems unless the contractor's is a savvy designer to catch design mistakes if there isn't a designer involved.

I really don't think its a 400k job you have there. But then again, we need a lot more info and the size of the place. Wait, 400k? I'll fly out and do that for you right now:D. I hope this will help you with your questions.

We just did a complete remodel of our kitchen, which was late 1960's vintage. I can't really comment on prices since with an even older home the "discovery" gotchas once the demo starts can be exciting and hard on the budget. We had some unexpected issues that came up since the redesign was a complete re-wickering of appliances, etc. You will undoubtedly have many more adventures than we had.

We also did a complete Master bedroom/bathroom redo last year. Same stuff, the normal unknowns.

What I can say is that for both remodels we set up temporary shop in other parts of the house that were isolated from the sturm und drang of demo and construction. Surviving renovation projects is like painting. All the real work is in the prep...make sure you have a comfortable, workable space to live in while the rest of the house is being worked.

This sounds like a great project. One of the guys who works with us has an apartment in a semi high rise near you guys that also faces the city. The view is worth it!!!

My experience doesn't relate to your project at all, since I live in a different part of the country, have a different style of house which is newer, etc. etc. However, I'm a general contractor, so it's not that I don't know a little about the subject.

What I was trying to say was, you price out what you know, then decide if you want to add some extra for unforseen problems. You at least know the minimum price...

When you say you might change the windows, or not, that's the kind of thing you need to decide before asking how much. In my case, that was about $100k. Your situation might be different, if you have a different number of windows, or use a different quality of window, or if you have a different exterior veneer, etc. Still, you haven't even decided on the basic scope, so asking for a ballpark number is pointless.

JR

^see that? that right there is useful info. I am not a general contractor. I have spent some money doing projects on the two homes that I currently own, so I have a decent idea how much things cost, but I've never done a massive remodel with new kitchens/baths/rewires, etc. Fact is that the scope of what we end up doing is adjustable. I'd like to start with the assumption that we do everything, including windows but perhaps we don't have to. I do not have the luxury of time here, so "ballpark" of some sort is the best I can do. No opportunity to get bids from multiple renovation contractors prior to making a firm offer. The market is stupid here and we are (for the 2nd time during this home search) in a "Last and Best" situation where the seller has multiple bids and is asking for best offer in terms of price, but also encouraging bidders to drop inspection and appraisal contingencies, and pay cash.

Depending on finishes and appliances ... my thumbnail estimate is 400k.

We did a 1930's stone house once. A small window was in excess $1,000 each, the larger windows ... fuggitaboudit. But if you are going to do it ... do it right.

Add in 'close to NYC', best county and windows? $500k should get'r done.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1429895168.jpg

you know me Shade. I don't do half @$$ed. If I use the same purchase price to upgrade cost ratio as my 930, I will be in huge trouble:eek:

Be careful... Sometimes we let our emotional attachment to things get in the way of the value proposition ...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1429895940.jpg

People ask me these questions (the how much without much info but new kitchen, baths and …) all the time, so I will try my best to answer them to within 100k in your situation. That's a reasonable # since I can't actually see the home. Construction pricing is sky high on both coasts especially the big cities but I bet they are comparable, and the differences shouldn't be much besides having to deal with logistics on getting materials to the job site in a place like NYC.

A experience (and good) contractor should be able to estimate where potential structural problems maybe on older homes without opening up the walls based on the condition of the exterior walls, sags on the floors etc… Those are the watch it budgets I have for my clients before we remove or sign anything. This way they know what to expect should we find issues down the road. I found no home owners do not like those unexpected surprises. For example, rotted subfloor around toilets and tub or shower is almost a given on older homes (50 years or older). its usually not in my bid, but they know damn well the bad new will be coming once we tear into it.

Oh, 930 owners? We will get along just fine.

The logistics part isn't a big deal at all (and one of the reasons I like this property). Imagine a single family home, midtown NYC views, 10 minute transit bus ride to Port Authority Bus terminal in midtown Manhattan, with a 2 car detached garage and a driveway (so one can accomodate something like 6 or more passenger vehicles). That's what we're talking about here...damn near the Real Estate equivalent of a unicorn. There are exactly 2 other unicorns on the market right now in the same neighborhood. One is massively overpriced. They just dropped 500k but still about 500k too high IMO. The other I have viewed and spoken to the agent. It might come down to a price that is in reality-land, but even so the house is massively larger than we want or need - 6000 sqft including 1500 sqft finished basement.

Been having lots of conversations and gaining comfort in my 200sqft estimate as at the high end of ranges. We have until next Tuesday to make our "Best/Final" offer.

Well, now we know. A general remod price price needed for best and final. I see why its in the 3-400k range for a remod. Even if your place is only 4000 sq.', then the 300+ range sounds about right plus other misc. fees and other end finishes.

I can't add much to what has been contributed already. Take the advice provided here and make sure that you build in an adequate contingency fund when making your estimations.

Also, everyone always expects that they are doing a remodel to create their dream house and that they will live in it forever. But, that is most often not the case. You are going to need to add up the purchase price plus the cost of the improvements then determine if you could get that back if you needed to sell in a few years.

You have peaked my interest. Is the house next door also for sale for about $1 million more?

That's the spot. The house for sale next door is over 2x larger in living space, and also sits on a triple lot (75x100) as opposed to a double lot (50x100). Beautifully renovated and essentially brand new since the current owner never moved in. Has a lot of appeal, and very little in the way of surprises since the reno is already done. On the other hand its just stupid-big for just two people and a couple dogs.

That's a [/b]huge[/b] amount of money.

Don't ask hail-mary questions on the internet.
Get serious with the pros. Throw them a bill or two or three at least.

Big life decisions to be made.

Ask yourself three questions:
1). Why haven't all the insiders and the sharks bought the place already?

2). How committed are you, AND YOUR WIFE, to living in a dirty as f*** remodel project?
Really.....
This affects your daily job. Your commute. Your relationship. Your present comfortable way of life.

3). Most importantly, how economically stable is the area?

Will you eventually get an economic return on the area if times change for the very worst?

Will you and your spouse be comfortable in that house and neighborhood many years from now regardless?

I would suggest that you find out who was the GC on the remodel next door. Then, see if they can give you a ballpark estimate to do the renovations on the house that you are looking at quickly. If nothing else, it will provide another data point and perspective.

BTW, that is a great neighborhood and marvelous views. Good luck.

John, I appreciate your concern but please give me a slice of credit. You think this is the only place I am asking questions? I ask here because I have seen a good range of experience/wisdom displayed by regulars.

Your location says midwest...not sure where but you also need to calibrate to the market. Everything worth living in is expensive here. The home I will eventually sell in Jersey City is up 80% in value since I purchased it 10 years ago. That's not a guess. 2 of my neighbors just sold their homes at +80%. They sold quickly and there was even a bidding war in one case. That's good for me as a seller, but sucks for me on the buyside. I'm not looking at going in bigger than the current value of what I've got - its a lateral move of sorts in $ terms. Quieter, more mature neighborhood. Our current neighborhood has gone 100% hip. We're getting a bit too old for the scene. We want a porch and some rocking chairs so we can yell "get off my lawn" to the young'ns.

Real-estate that is a stupid easy commute to NYC will always be a valuable commodity in high demand. Unless the effluent really hits the impeller...and then I think resale is probably the least of our concerns. We will be wanting to stockpile guns ammo, fuel and non perishable foodstuffs in that case.

to your specifics:
1) house hasn't even been on the market for a week.
2) not going to live in the house for the ugliest part of the remodel - I can afford to buy and carry the cost while still maintaining my current residence. Commute from prospect is equal to or better than current commute
3) economic stability = 10 minutes from NYC job market.

the stress of the whole project process absolutely has me concerned. the contractor joke: "renovate a house, lose a spouse" believe you me I don't take it lightly.

exactly. Mega wonga.

Want to build a 7,000 sf retail building with drive through in Fresno? An Arco Am/Pm with attached two story office?


Reading through this thread, I think there would be a threshold for me to just say forget it, let the pros take this thing and just run with it. DIY is good for maybe curtains and plumbing fixtures. The enjoyment of life carries a higher value than saving a few % here and there. Seriously, I would probably budget to stay in a nice apartment for a year or two, move stuff out of the house, and move back in when it's done.

jwasbury, sorry to be the reactionary chicken who clucks loudly on the fencepost 24/7.
Those emotional questions need to be addressed first, and it sounded like you were and are hesitant.
(I may not say it the right way, most of the time, but I mean it in the right way.)
It's apparent there is a lot of money potentially involved....

I suggest you get together quickly with Look171. A true pro in the trade.
I assume you have pics of everything for reference.


Generally, I'd say go for it.
If the price is right, and the neighborhood stable, then you will not lose.
Everything can be fixed up over time.

If this is the house I think it is, I'd probably not do as much work to it as you have planned. It doesn't look that bad in the photos and sometimes preserving some of the originality has merit.

JR

My background for reference:

I'm in Ann Arbor, MI.
I bought my house in 2009 for a buck fifty plus plus plus plus.
A quiet neighborhood with perks.
There were other deals in the neighborhood for 50 and 60K. I still kick myself for not going full tilt at the time.
My house needed "work".
We lived out of one small room over the winter with a dog and two cats while the rest was torn apart.
It was not fun. Daily things were difficult.

Now several years later, the rest of this little city is going vertical with skyscrapers and repaving and rebuilding and all that big-city crap.
It is not the town I grew up in.
There are few houses left on the market these days.
Market is tight.

But I was on the pocket change level.
It sounds like you are on a different level of economic commitment.
Plan wisely.

Your job and your spouse are the most important things to consider at this point.

Unless they have posted pics of the inside (and they didn't when it was listed for a reason), you're not seeing what I am seeing. The exterior has been well maintained. The interior looks like it hasn't seen love since the Partridge Family was on network TV.

Absolutely we want to preserve original details. We like those...otherwise we wouldn't even consider a house built in 1900. For reference, our "country house" in Pennsylvania was built in 1860.

While I think its entirely possible to spend 500k remodeling this house, I don't think it will be necessary to spend that much to bring it up to a standard that we are comfortable with. However, as you may note from the tag under my screen name, I am the sort that likes to be conservative with the numbers. I make my living from sweating the numbers.