Brain Trust? - Modelling the cost of remodelling

[jwasbury]

Mrs. jwasbury and I are currently looking at buying an older single family home in what is (IMO) the nicest neighborhood in our county (and just minutes from NYC).

The place was occupied by an elderly couple for probably the last 50 years and it hasn't had any major facelift in that time, so it needs almost everything:

entirely new kitchen
renew 2.5 baths
add Central air
upgrade electrical service to 200A, rewire much if not all of the home
gut basement (was used as a doctor's office many decades ago)
some amount of floor plan modification - open the space up a bit
potentially replace windows

The exterior is generally in good condition, doesn't have any serious needs. I wouldn't say this is a total gut renovation job, as there are things that can/should be preserved like beautiful parquet wood floors in the dining and living rooms.

I've been told that $200/sqft is a "safe" estimate for a remodel with high-end finishes (that's $480k) which seems a bit high to me but I suppose its conservative. Based on the cost of lesser jobs I've had done on my current home, my immediate SWAG number for remodelling cost on the target property was $300k. I'd like to hear the collective's experience here.

Thanks...

[billybek]

How many square feet and how old is the home?

In my case, the amount of money and time (I had done most of the work myself) I would have been better off to take the house down to the floor deck and build what I wanted.

Too late for me now and YMMV.

[LWJ]

There are many variables at play here. I have done this (have my bath waiting to be tiled as I write!) somewhat continuously since 1993.

First: Are you looking to DIY? Are you looking to have a contractor do it? Somewhere in the middle? You be the GC and hire the subs?

Second - what does the timeline look like? All in one fell swoop or spread this over some years?

Last - will you live in the home while this happens?

Lowest cost is DIY / hire subs over a long time period while you live there. This allows you to move thoughtfully (read lower cost) on things and you won't have additional housing costs. This also means breathing in nasty construction dust, having an angry spouse, etc. If you go this route and stay somewhat moderate in your tastes, you could keep this under $150 - $200K.

Highest cost would be live out of the home and hire a contractor / architect. $200 / sq foot is easy to hit with this model.

Me? Currently have a 3000 sq foot house. I have always been the GC and done some of the work myself. Example? I installed 1000 sq feet of traditional red Oak hardwood. Great exercise! I took three full sized Uhaul loads to the dump of debris. Our remodel included knocking down walls, moved the kitchen and have a high end remodel with HVAC and some excavation expense. Added a bath, bedroom, re-sided, Master Bath and built in closet and theater without increasing the footprint. I just cringed when I added this up but believe me, it is WAY below $200 per square foot. PM me your phone number and I will tell you details if you care. The good news? This is a great way to build your net worth. Remodels force you to shove cash into a fixed asset that you can liquidate at a later time - as in retirement.
Good luck. This is work.

Larry

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by billybek

I would have been better off to take the house down to the floor deck and build what I wanted.

Read this again if it didn't sink in....

[fintstone]

Sounds more like $150K where I live.

[MBAtarga]

How old is the actual structure?
What's the possibility of this residence including asbestos?
What about the plumbing system?

This may not be a cosmetic refresh. You might be replacing the entire infrastructure.

[jwasbury]

Thanks for responses thus far

Originally Posted by billybek

I would have been better off to take the house down to the floor deck and build what I wanted.

^no doubt that is cheaper...but there is no way in hell I would do that. This is a circa 1900 tudor style, and they don't build them like this anymore. Not interested in new construction, in my experience new stuff is of poor quality and is cookie-cutter boring. I feel the same way about cars which is why I love obsolete air cooled Porsches.

The house is currently 2400 sqft of living space (not counting the Dr. office in the basement). We have a a couple options as far as timeline, but what makes most sense to us would be to the remod in phases. 1st phase, get the biggest and most painful stuff done (things you don't want to live around) first. Probably kitchen and baths, central air and wiring updates. Then we can sell our current home, move in and finish off other spaces to our liking over time.

Won't have the bandwidth for much in the way of DIY, so assume GC, and architect are mandatory.

[javadog]

This is like asking how high is up...

Not enough info, too many variables and lots of hidden surprises.

If you want an answer to your question, make a detailed list of exactly what you would do, then start pricing it out, a line item at a time.

JR

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by MBAtarga

This may not be a cosmetic refresh. You might be replacing the entire infrastructure.

Absolutely not just cosmetic. Much of the infrastructure will need updates. As I said, new electrical service is a given. A large amount of rewiring, if not 100% re-wire. Might be same for plumbing...hard to assess. Heating system is serviceable, but no central A/C and we would want to put that in.


on the other hand, not all the "cosmetics" need updates either...example is that something like 1200-1500 sq foot of flooring can be refinished (my preference) rather than torn out and replaced with new.

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by javadog

This is like asking how high is up...

Not enough info, too many variables and lots of hidden surprises.

If you want an answer to your question, make a detailed list of exactly what you would do, then start pricing it out, a line item at a time.

JR

^the hidden surprises part means that even if you make an itemized list and price them all out, you still can't say that you've eliminated the variables. I will have my GC go through the place and give us an idea, but who knows what they find when they open things up and start work?

There will be no definitive answer possible that has 100% certainty...of that I am 100% certain. My question was: "what's your experience been" and your response is 100% unhelpful, but thanks for chiming in

[dad911]

Just did a job like that in Hoboken. Not sure where you are, but without specifics there is no way to get a reasonable quote. You're likely in the right ballpark, but depending on size and selections, you could spend $30k-100k in the kitchen alone.

Best to get multiple quotes and referrals. The biggest headache in NJ with a building of that age is lead & asbestos remediation. Many contractors I know won't touch a building built prior to 1978 because of lead laws.

[Aragorn]

I will chime in and say I would be a little concerned about a house that hasn't seen a remodel since the 50's-60's. Are there any vinyl tiles present in the house? Are the pipes wrapped with a clothy white insulated fabric? Do the attic and walls contain a fluffy brown blown in type of insulation? All of those could be big ticket items to have abated and removed if they are hot.

Is there any knob and tube Knob-and-tube wiring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in the house or aluminum wire Aluminum wire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ?

Houses that have not kept up with the times usually have a lot of problems that have been pushed to the wayside. Old growth trees with roots in the sewer lines. Musty smelling houses full of old cigarette and tobacco smells. Stains under the carpet from long gone cats and dogs.

Look carefully and do your homework before you invest. It could be a gem in the rough or a money pit waiting to suck up your retirement.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by billybek

In my case, the amount of money and time (I had done most of the work myself) I would have been better off to take the house down to the floor deck and build what I wanted.

Too late for me now and YMMV.

Amen brother!

Baring that... get at least three estimate's... lay them out on the table... take the highest estimate... double it, and that is your cost.

You think I'm kidding, unfortunately I'm not.

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by dad911

Just did a job like that in Hoboken. Not sure where you are, but without specifics there is no way to get a reasonable quote. You're likely in the right ballpark, but depending on size and selections, you could spend $30k-100k in the kitchen alone.

Best to get multiple quotes and referrals. The biggest headache in NJ with a building of that age is lead & asbestos remediation. Many contractors I know won't touch a building built prior to 1978 because of lead laws.

^this house is in Weehawken. NYC views in the King's bluff area. We will of course get multiple quotes if we move forward. Right now its just trying to ballpark the remod cost so that we can determine how far we are willing to go on purchase price. Buying a project is not my first choice, but we have very specific location and other criteria that we are looking for and there are very few properties that meet them.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by MBAtarga

How old is the actual structure?
What's the possibility of this residence including asbestos?
What about the plumbing system?

Add to that lead paint containment measures.

And to any renovation project, always add 20% overrun to your budget.

We recently did pretty much a whole-house renovation over the course of 4 years. 2000 sq foot bi-level. Not as historical as the home you are looking for, but this is what we did and the approximate costs using a general contractor:
New kitchen $65k
Master bath: $17K
Main bath: $15k
New front entry: $8000
New floors: $2000 (Sand, stain and seal existing hardwood floors & add matching wood floor in kitchen)
New garage slab: $11k
New roof: $7000
New driveway:$5200
Landscaping: $6000
Electrical: upgrade to 200 amp service: $3000

Kitchen:

Main bath:

Master bath:

Front entry:

Living room/entry railing:


We did go with a lot of high end appliances and extras, but we did it to our liking.

Of course, last year we sold the home, and are now looking for another home -- criteria: something NEWER - so we don't have to do all the renovation work again!

My advise: do it right -- it may cost more overall, but the end result is always better.

I'm in North NJ - If you want the contact info of the folks I used, let me know! Creative Kitchen and Bath in Wayne (Pete Albanese) was the general contractor. They managed these projects well...

Good luck!

-Z-man.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by peteremsley

65 large for a kitchen? wow.

I should have clarified: that included a lot of other stuff including:
- the floors
- taking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room
- electrical
- painting
- upgrading the plumbing

The kitchen and baths were down to the studs renovation.

-Z

[Seahawk]

We just did a complete remodel of our kitchen, which was late 1960's vintage. I can't really comment on prices since with an even older home the "discovery" gotchas once the demo starts can be exciting and hard on the budget. We had some unexpected issues that came up since the redesign was a complete re-wickering of appliances, etc. You will undoubtedly have many more adventures than we had.

We also did a complete Master bedroom/bathroom redo last year. Same stuff, the normal unknowns.

What I can say is that for both remodels we set up temporary shop in other parts of the house that were isolated from the sturm und drang of demo and construction. Surviving renovation projects is like painting. All the real work is in the prep...make sure you have a comfortable, workable space to live in while the rest of the house is being worked.

This sounds like a great project. One of the guys who works with us has an apartment in a semi high rise near you guys that also faces the city. The view is worth it!!!

[look 171]

I never over run my jobs. On my contract, it specifies that there is a guarantee maximum price unless there are changes, and there always are, and hidden issues the none of us can see. If I exceed the Guarantee Max Price, I pay out of my pocket to complete the job. I have to do that only one time.

How big is the house? More info is needed to get remotely close to getting a ball park number. Since its NYC, getting materials and parking maybe an issue and it should factored into the estimate. Planning with your contractor will be the best thing you can do. Then do it some more. On a job like this, request a rough time line and try and stick to it as close as possible. Lots of residential contractors make their money by taking on too many jobs but have only a small crew and rely on sub contractors. Subs have other work and that's where things go bad. Wait time cost money, sometime lots of it.

Higher end materials on a kitchen normally run about 70-80K for a typical 3/2 house. Appliances will eat up 20K easy. Baths are 20-50K and it only goes up from there.

My advice is to have some kind of plan to get rough estimates if you do not already have a contractor. From my experience, big contractors or companies "usually" do not provide enough details on higher end remod jobs. Who's doing the design work? Who's providing the details? the more specific, the less problems unless the contractor's is a savvy designer to catch design mistakes if there isn't a designer involved.

I really don't think its a 400k job you have there. But then again, we need a lot more info and the size of the place. Wait, 400k? I'll fly out and do that for you right now. I hope this will help you with your questions.

[Seahawk]

We just did a complete remodel of our kitchen, which was late 1960's vintage. I can't really comment on prices since with an even older home the "discovery" gotchas once the demo starts can be exciting and hard on the budget. We had some unexpected issues that came up since the redesign was a complete re-wickering of appliances, etc. You will undoubtedly have many more adventures than we had.

We also did a complete Master bedroom/bathroom redo last year. Same stuff, the normal unknowns.

What I can say is that for both remodels we set up temporary shop in other parts of the house that were isolated from the sturm und drang of demo and construction. Surviving renovation projects is like painting. All the real work is in the prep...make sure you have a comfortable, workable space to live in while the rest of the house is being worked.

This sounds like a great project. One of the guys who works with us has an apartment in a semi high rise near you guys that also faces the city. The view is worth it!!!

[javadog]

Originally Posted by jwasbury

^the hidden surprises part means that even if you make an itemized list and price them all out, you still can't say that you've eliminated the variables. I will have my GC go through the place and give us an idea, but who knows what they find when they open things up and start work?

There will be no definitive answer possible that has 100% certainty...of that I am 100% certain. My question was: "what's your experience been" and your response is 100% unhelpful, but thanks for chiming in

My experience doesn't relate to your project at all, since I live in a different part of the country, have a different style of house which is newer, etc. etc. However, I'm a general contractor, so it's not that I don't know a little about the subject.

What I was trying to say was, you price out what you know, then decide if you want to add some extra for unforseen problems. You at least know the minimum price...

When you say you might change the windows, or not, that's the kind of thing you need to decide before asking how much. In my case, that was about $100k. Your situation might be different, if you have a different number of windows, or use a different quality of window, or if you have a different exterior veneer, etc. Still, you haven't even decided on the basic scope, so asking for a ballpark number is pointless.

JR