I think if we started enforcing the death penalty, that would make people have a good think about waving guns around and shooting at cops and innocent people. You have to look at our population, not just police. You have to be slightly nuts to be a cop and get shot at here. I think a few more justified cop shootings are not a bad thing.

We are one of the last "developed" nations left with the death penalty, at least in some states. It has proven to be no deterrent at all. That said, I'm still very much in favor of it, since deterrence is only one of the goals. Justice - real justice - is the other. In that regard, I don't think we execute nearly enough people.

Jeff, you are absoluely right. Criminal law bases penalties on those two theoretical platforms. The more you study the death penalty, the harder it becomes to implement. Having said that, we have an imperfect system but far too many bad characters with no hope of ever being rehabilitated. I think we honestly need to start eliminating some of them. It's really harsh and really sad to admit, but there is a reason that the other more civilized developed countries have low crime today. It's because they weeded out bad people generations ago.

I was reading up on the maximum security prison our Boston bomber is headed for. The cells are about as big as our closets and designed so they never see sunlight. They get out just a couple hours per week, and have no human interaction other than with guards and other staff. Most go stark raving crazy in just a couple of years of that. Maybe that's a "better" punishment than killing them, I don't know. Sure is expensive, though, and to what end are we keeping them alive at that point? Just "euthanize" them and be done with it. It serves no purpose to keep them alive.

Curious Jeff, Why don't you become a reserve Police Officer? You seem to have ideas on a better way to police, Why not volunteer your time in that capacity to your community.

Another question, curious how many here with CCW permits, would feel the need to get them in Germany, Italy or the UK.

I don't think Jeff being a cop would change a thing beyond his very own shift and beat. It surely wouldn't stop other cops from shooting first and asking questions later. It wouldn't mean cops are held more accountable for precipitous or excessive use of force. It wouldn't stop some areas from using SWAT to serve all warrants (i.e. Fairfax Co., VA).

If I lived in Europe again, I would buy and carry illegally if I couldn't successfully navigate the permit process. I probably wouldn't carry on my person very much, but definitely in the car and on the bike. Traffic stops there just about never involve suspicion of weapons being in the car, so it'd be pretty hard to get made.

That's a great idea, Michael, and one I have actually been considering as my retirement looms. I have a couple, maybe three years left in my "career", and will be looking for other things to do with my time. My town has a very good "crime prevention" volunteer unit. I see lots of retirees filling that role. They get to drive around in a city car (marked "Crime Prevention" so as not to be confused with the real police) and provide extra eyes and communication. That could even serve as a stepping stone to be a full-up reserve officer. I might like that. I'm sure I would learn a great deal.

Funny, when I was a young man, I thought I wanted to be a cop. I had worked at Boeing for a couple of years right out of school and had gotten laid off. I was spending an awful lot of time with some cop buddies, all of whom were old enough to be my dad. Since I had lost my real dad way too early (I was only 18, he was only 50), these older guys kind of took me under their wing. They are the ones who instilled in me my lifetime passion for the shooting sports, everything from hunting to match shooting to reloading my own ammo. In retrospect, they kept me out of a lot of trouble.

When I mentioned to them that I would like to be a cop, to a man, they talked me out of it and encouraged me to continue to pursue my engineering career (so I did). They were all Seattle cops, not a one with less than 20 years, and I think they were all becoming a bit jaded by then. Most of them got out after I had known them for a few years. Most of them now, 35 years on, have passed away, and the others I've lost touch with. One of their sons, though, runs a gun shop through which I still buy most of my stuff. I miss those guys.

Oh, and on the CCW permit - if one were available, I would get one just as a matter of principle, whether I thought I "needed" one or not. I've had one since I was 21 (encouraged by those cop buddies to exercise my rights, and also to cover my ass if I was heading to the range or something).

I actually hardly ever carry. I'll carry when I'm heading for the woods (but then it's out in the open), or heading away from home for a few days (then I carry it there and it stays in the car most of the time, or in the hotel room at night). I know my lackadaisical approach to carry may appall some of the more hard core, armed all the time types, but I just don't find myself in places or situations that I feel warrant it. I avoid those places and situations.

I always wanted to be a pilot. Had dreams of flying when I would sleep. Then I found out that they don't make so much money, have to work for lousy airlines, and they are told where to fly, and when. That's when I decided that I would do something else. I don't think there is any way to be paid enough to be a cop.

Seattle had billboards up all across town last year or so advertising a starting wage of $78k/year to be a cop. My son who graduated from the University of Washington's mechanical engineering program, with honors, could not command that kind of starting wage. I'm sure it's regional and varies widely, but that ain't chump change, especially as a starting age. Word has it, with OT, many veterans easily top $200k/year in Seattle.

With the pension-spiking that goes (illegally) in AZ, $200k is not unrealistic here either, though they start out a lot lower. When I was growing up in NJ in the 80s, a township cop where we lived could make $100k after a few years in. But then property taxes there were almost 10x what they are here.

I encourage it Jeff. I think you should persue it. That being said, I fall into the catagory of one who I guess has become jaded as well, My kids have no desire to follow in my footsteps and if they did I would do everything possible to discourage it......5 more years and I'm done .....


Ironically, how you carry is pretty much how I carry, I only even have spoons because of the job and they can have that one back when I'm finished.....

Michael, whatever they pay you, it's not enough IMO.

You can make a nice living.....

Thank you. There are some days that I would completely agree with that statement....but we do pretty good.

I think I probably will.

You know, I have to think the "jaded" part comes from doing it in a big city. Seattle does have its ugly side, and I just could not imagine dealing with folks like that every day. Just the low level dip shytes who never do anything "big" enough to put them away for good, but just wear you down one wife beating at a time.

One of my old school buddies wound up as a Sheriff's deputy in Gunnison, Colorado. He is on their DARE (or modern day equivalent) team, going around to schools and working with at-risk kids. Far, far different job than busting crack whores and their pimps in Seattle. He loves it, and couldn't imagine doing anything else. He sees tangible results - lives changed for the better. That would be a pretty darn cool way to spend your day.

Yeah, my "carry spoons" - single action Colts. Tells you how serious I am. Granted, they work, and they are what I know, but they are better conversation pieces than anything else. Still wouldn't want to get tagged by one, though...

By jove Rick, you could be onto something.

Here is an interesting fact (sorry I do not have a chart). Since 1792 there were 4000 law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in the UK. During that same period there were 20,000 officers killed in the line of duty in the US. NYC leads the list with officers killed with firearms and Texas leads the list with total officers killed. Maybe this sheds some light into the reason US police are more likely to use their weapon then some other countries it seems they are under attack more.
Rick as you stated there are people who shoot at cops even on a simple traffic stop and there are some who simply ambush the police as we have seen several times in NYC. Police officers Piagentini and Jones 1971, Police Officer Edward Burns 1988 and the most recent Police Officers Liu, Ramos and Moore just to mention a few as well as others all over the country. I wonder how many times this happens in European countries?

There's nothing scientific about my opinion here, but I really believe the US simply has a higher percentage of nutbags in the general population than exists in many other countries. I cannot wrap my head around shooting at a cop over a simple traffic stop that would, at worst, end up being a minor cite. Yet, it happens all the time. If I had a decomposing body and bloody knife in the backseat, yes, that might be a good reason to shoot someone who could uncover your other crimes. And then we have these nutbags who proactively go find cops to ambush in their cars or shoot in the back. I don't think that exists in any other country and I don't think it has anything to do with our gun culture. It's just that we have too many crazy people. Our also having the highest incarceration rate in the world doesn't exactly leave a lot of prison space for the real bad guys either.

FWIW, I've been pulled over lots of times while carrying, usually tell the cop about it and they've always been very cool and relaxed about it. The world is simply mad and even madder in the US.

Maybe this is true, maybe its not. What is true though, because the evidence is undeniable, is that the nutbags in America are far more likely to have access to guns.