Lessons to learn from track cam footage? (errors spins crashes )

[winders]

Originally Posted by Z-man

winders, tervuren - smooth, deliberate, and quick are relative terms, I suppose. Winders: you say what is outside the car, and inside the car are two very different looking things -- and I agree. But if you take it a step further - inside the driver's mind - that is where the smoothness is most evident - especially if the driver has the ability to anticipate well ahead of the need for an input. I should not have said deliberate - perhaps calculated and efficient (and quick) are better ways to describe the techniques... You don't see veteran drivers flailing and sawing at the steering wheel for no reason, do you?

The video in the OP's first post was at a DE event, not a race. At DE's, one should not focus on racecraft, but rather on techniques associated with performance driving. Granted, at times those two overlap. I have not dived into club racing (yet). So my experience is indeed limited to DE's and autocross.

Now if that bozo parking in the fast lane would just MOVE OVER...

-Z

Z-man,

What is happening in the drivers mind should be calm and calculated. Smooth? I don't see how that can be applied to thought processes. Smooth is an adjective that can be applied to what the car is doing or what the driver is doing. We want the car to appear to be acting smoothly on track and, for this to happen, sometimes the driver has to be not be smooth with his inputs to accomplish this.

Racecraft has nothing to do with driving at the limit. Racecraft is what happens while two or more guys are racing each other while driving at or beyond the limit and sometimes below the limit.

A driver at a DE might be driving at 7/10th or he might be driving at 10/10ths. How smooth driver looks could be very different between the two.

[Tervuren]

Smooth - I define that as if you drew a graph of available grip, and a line of what a driver was asking from the car, the two would coincide. Whatever input made it happen, was being smooth. There is a 3rd dimension that applies in corners that are not grip or power limited of asking the minimal amount required.

This 3rd dimension is why the cars move several feet off line when pack racing at Daytona or 'Dega. If you are trying to hold the car to a line it is wasted tire friction as the car is buffeted aerodynamically in ways that are constantly changing. Better to let the car move a foot or two, then the extra friction of trying to fight the constantly changing side ways aero forces. Its probably one of the hardest forms of race driving there is IMHO.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by xvhjhj

geez, thats a fast track to be tached out in 3rd gear for an AX. Even before he slid off I was looking at that treeline.

From video #2, I concluded that it is, indeed, risky to slalom at 75mph ...

[wayner]

As per Winders, I think these guys are being smooth.

(I’ve got a lot to learn, and what I have learned so far is that there is a lot more buffer “out there” than I would ever have imagined. Tiptoeing against the edge of traction is not exploring the limit, its entering the fast zone on these 911s...just don't wait for the car to tell you what it wants or it is already too late).

Andrew Smith in car camera



For what it looks like form outside, see Chris Harris (start at 4:45)

[sugarwood]

VIDEO #4 Saw this in a sig.


Good save, but what happened in #4 ?
He seems fine, and then suddenly he's all over the place. Scary.
Did he let up the clutch in in middle of the turn?
I see a puff of white smoke in the rear view.

VIDEO #5 Saw this in a sig.


What about #5?
I see him reach for the shifter right before he loses traction.

[VaSteve]

You are never going to learn anything this way.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

You are never going to learn anything this way.

I like watching the videos, and have enjoyed the commentary thus far in this thread.
Thank you.

[Buckterrier]

Originally Posted by wayner

Here is a lesson that I have hopefully learned from watching a video before it happens to me!

As 911 owners we've all hopefully been schooled about lift throttle oversteer and how our cars will leave the road backwards if we are not careful.

I've always been very deliberate in my actions and being careful not to do that ENTERING a corner. BUT, I never considered that the situation may be created when entering on to a straight until this video was posted. Now it seems so obvious to me that this can happen.

The first video shows a guy getting it wrong (pinch the corner exit and lift at 1:19- oops, and yes I know that a slide started entering part II, of the corner but it all went wrong when he ran out of track and pinched at the exit.)

The second video shows a pro's better reaction to running out of room (stay in it and put a wheel off at 2:20 in the second video)

I'm all ears though to learn more form the pros.

See 1:19 in video one and 2:20 in video 2)

I have a pretty good perspective on the first video from this post as I am the 'guy' driving.

First I didn't lift until the rear end was already completely around. Second I didn't run out of track what so ever. I was using the same line as I had the laps prior to. In fact I had set my fastest lap the lap prior to the spinout. What I may have done wrong was pulling the wheel right too fast trying to set up for the lefty coming up.

When an accident happens like this the PCA, the day was a sanctioned PCA DE, investigates what happens. Both myself and the instructor that was in the car had to go to the infield care center for evaluation. We were fine as I have Recaro race seats & 6 point harnesses in the car. The instructor told the PCA I just out ran the tires. Now don't get me wrong the accident was completely my fault as I was behind the wheel & on my dime, (literally, $11,000 worth of damage).
The instructor was teaching me throttle steering. I grasped the concept really well. Of course the tires got hotter than I had ever experienced and I crashed, bottom line. As a poster said earlier I was one of the folks that go 100%.

I made mistakes no doubt about it. I'd caution not to assume anything from a video though.

[sugarwood]

Buck, thanks for posting. How is your car today? Back in action?

I read this analysis thread about Buckterrier's crash.
Can someone explain what "track out" and "pinch" is ?

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Buck, thanks for posting. How is your car today? Back in action?

I read this analysis thread about Buckterrier's crash.
Can someone explain what "track out" and "pinch" is ?

TRack out is allowing the car to go all the way to the opposite side of the track after going through a turn. Pinch is a bit of the opposite...the car wants to naturally track out, pinching is forcing in...staying in the turn more than you should.

[ted]

From watching this video I learned I should never race in the rain.

[Cajundaddy]

Maybe spend time watching someone doing it right rather than the offs and screw-ups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZw7ZnxWKjs

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Buckterrier

I have a pretty good perspective on the first video from this post as I am the 'guy' driving.

First I didn't lift until the rear end was already completely around. Second I didn't run out of track what so ever.

.... I'd caution not to assume anything from a video though.

Thanks for adding this info,but more importantly, thanks for posting the video in the first place. Regardless of what actually happened in your instance, it did make me think about the consequences of pinching at corner exit. Even if that wasn't what happened in your video, it sure made me think twice about it, which is good value in my opinion.

Thanks!

[Buckterrier]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Buck, thanks for posting. How is your car today? Back in action?

Your welcome. Yeah the car is fine but was down for a year and a half. Haven't been on the track since, not that I sure wouldn't like to but circumstances have changed.

Originally Posted by wayner

Thanks for adding this info,but more importantly, thanks for posting the video in the first place. Regardless of what actually happened in your instance, it did make me think about the consequences of pinching at corner exit. Even if that wasn't what happened in your video, it sure made me think twice about it, which is good value in my opinion.

Thanks!

You are welcome also Wayner. A lot to think about on the track. But it sure is fun!! I have another vid posted from Watkins Glen with a musher happier ending lol.

[sugarwood]

Just came across this old one. I'll add it to the collection.
Understeer 101.

[aigel]

WTF is "CARBÄHN" supposed to mean? That guy was just going too fast trying to keep up with the other car. I can't see what else went wrong ... Scary stuff on a public road. Easily could have died. I wish people would go to an AX and track event instead and get some instruction.

G

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

More driving, less douchebag grandstanding.

^^^ this. He was too concerned with his cool factor.

When I've driven a car anywhere near it's limits, whether AX or willow springs or California speedway or laguna seca, I was always so focused and concentrating so hard I'd have a tough time answering a simple question.

I can't imagine being so cocky and so full of myself as to be jabbering on an on like that.


But then again I'm slo and ain't gots no skilz in a race car.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Buckterrier

Of course the tires got hotter than I had ever experienced and I crashed, bottom line.

I see this in karting when drivers are used to short races, put them a race of 3X the distance, and their "at the limit style" will have them limping around the track 2-3s slower than the guys who drove to conserve the heat in the rear tires.

The opposite is also true, the first time you drive rubber designed to grip at temperatures much higher than what the ambient temp the tires were sitting at is, can be a VERY rude awakening.

The wrong tires were installed on the rear of my '44, without a compound designed for winter temps. I not thinking, drive gently around a corner at about 15-20MPH, only to find my hands going for almost opposite lock as my car goes sideways trying to occupy two lanes. Fortunately, two lanes going my direction early morning without traffic.

I have never unintentionally repeated that experience again EVER.

[sugarwood]

What did the grey BMW at 7:00 do wrong?
https://youtu.be/SwN86seWo2E?t=7m3s

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

You are never going to learn anything this way.

yup. car control has to be instinctual in these cases. its fine if one can talk there way out of these mistakes, not lifting, countersteering faster, etc. but none of that matters without the instinct to do it train into you. and that means screwing it up a few times too.

most of these spins/mistakes are really bad throttle work, not bad wheel work. wheel work is typically not that tough, strange, or unpredictable, and most poeple are pretty insintually good at pointing the front wheels where they want the car to go.

what they are not good at, is the subtle throttle manipulations required to keep and maintain a line. and having an instinctual level of control over the throttle petal takes a long time and a lot of work.