Understanding why auto cognoscenti have historically scoffed at Detroit cars

[sugarwood]

I've been reading old car reviews to learn more about auto history/evolution. I just read a few BMW 2002 reviews written in '68 and '72, during the USA muscle car heydey. It's interesting to read that, even back then, auto cognoscenti considered Detroit cars ...a bit overdone.

The BMW 2002 tii, exquisite penance for the unrehabilitated car addict. No matter how you try, you can't help but like it. It is the essence of motoring truth: no strobe stripes, no phony teardrop racing mirrors, no triple turret taillights. Just finely honed machinery in the simplest steel and glass case.

In the suburbs, Biff Everykid and Kevin Acne and Marvin Sweatsock will press their fathers to buy HO Firebirds with tachometers mounted out near the horizon somewhere and enough power to light the city of Seattle, totally indifferent to the fact that they could fit more friends into a BMW in greater comfort and stop better and go around corners better and get about 29 times better gas mileage.

1968. Read The Car Review That Every Autojourno Has Tried To Copy
1972. 1972 BMW 2002 tii Archived Road Test – Review – Car and Driver

I am starting to understand the Euro-centric disapproval of the Detroit car market.

• Detroit 50s to mid 60s. Overdone cartoonish styling with space fins.
• Mid 60s to early 70s. Musclebound steroid bodybuilders who can't tie their shoelaces.
• 70s-80s Malaise-Era cars: USA emissions, underpowered, bloated designs, unmaneuverable, poor build quality.
• 80s were ugly, boxy, and cheap ...with bad electronics, for good measure.

Is that the general sentiment of the anti-Detroit car buff?

So, it seems Japanese beat Detroit on the economy front,
and Germans beat them on the performance front (Porsche turbo, Bosch fuel inj., AWD Quattro, etc)

What are your thoughts on the history of Detroit vs. Euro?

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

I am starting to understand the Euro-centric disapproval of the Detroit car market.

• Detroit 50s to mid 60s. Overdone cartoonish styling with space fins.
• Mid 60s to early 70s. Musclebound steroid bodybuilders who can't tie their shoelaces.
• 70s-80s Malaise-Era cars: USA emissions, underpowered, bloated designs, unmaneuverable, poor build quality.
• 80s were ugly, boxy, and cheap ...with bad electronics, for good measure.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess.

There is no denying the BMW 2002 is an icon and one of the most beloved cars of all time... however so is the Corvette.
I would disagree with your assessment (or should I say generalization) of 50s-60s styling... with a little effort I could find some ugly European automobiles from that era and/or some beautiful American cars.
60s-70s Yes, American horse power exceeded suspension technology... but this is Merica... bigger is better! Would you like fries with that 24oz steak?
70s-90s Um... yeah... American cars pretty much sucked... probably a few exceptions but I can't think of any of them.

[scottmandue]

[recycled sixtie]

Good question Sugarwood. I have had my share of used Merican cars. I have had a used '58 Ford Meteor, a 60 Chevy Biscayne. More success with a Chrysler awd van. It is hard to relate to Ram Tough ad said with a husky voice. But you see lots of Ram trucks around so it must appeal to some.

The marketing of say VW and Acura is attention getting. Even Acura has gone the ya ya ya route emulating VW. Brilliant advertising.

Old VW used beetles worked for me in the 60's. I would not risk a used modern VW. Interesting times in the auto world....

[VINMAN]

Maybe because a lot of Eurocar fans tend to be snobby elitists...


.

[oldE]

I can certainly attest to the build quality (or lack thereof ) in the late '60s and '70s. I remember going into the back shop of a GM dealer and seeing the inside driver's door panel removed. The mechanic working on this Buick said they had to go over every car they sold to make sure windows worked, latches were hooked up and nothing was going to fall off.
The old cliche of "Monday car" or "Friday cars" had more than a bit of truth in the bad old days.
A cousin of mine got two new motors from Pontiac because the drilled out oil passages of the 455 cu in. had not had the metal shavings removed. Within a few thousand miles the original motor and the first replacement destroyed their bearings. The second replacement was torn down by the dealer before it went into Jim's car to make sure there was no debris.
At the same time, another cousin would unload VWs off the truck at his dealership, check oil levels and tire pressures, wash them and hand the keys to new customers.
Quite a contrast.

Best
Les

[scottmandue]

There is also a European Vs American demographic... generally speaking America has (had) wide open spaces, super highways, and (had) cheap gas.
Europe has older narrower roads and expensive gas.
Thus America developed land yachts while Europe developed smaller more efficient cars.

[DanielDudley]

when US cars had solid rear axles, the 2002 has IRS. Pump up the tires to 33 pounds and go hit the curves. My Dad's Chevy came with bias ply tires in 72.

[rusnak]

I always thought our best engineers and designers went into building rockets, airplanes and buildings during those years. I also thought that the best industrial designers were definitely Italian, but they had to use their skill designing furniture and coffee makers rather than cars, save for Ferrari.

When you look at a Porsche, and see how much more effort went into the development of the designs when compared to a Cadillac, you definitely see that there is a cultural difference at work.

[nota]

that is why I had corvairs as cheap cars in the 70's
65 up had real IRS and actually handled
and thanks to naders fear-mongering they were a 100 or 2

then I went to BMWs 1800ti 1602 2002

[Dantilla]

I remember a quote from a German executive during the gas crisis in the '70's:

"Why doesn't Germany put a speed limit on the Autobahn to save gas?"

"Because then we would build cars as miserable as the Americans do."

Engineering a car to cruise at 130 mph for extended periods is going to end up being a better product than a car engineered for 55 mph.

[Rick V]

Detroit has pumped out some of the worlds most iconic vehicles ever imagined, they were instant classics when they were new cars. (Personally I think the Mopars top that list but I am biased)
The mentality of built in obsolescence in cars from Detroit helped to build crap that was only designed to go 100K and be retired, most cars from Europe were designed to last longer and to a higher standard.
Fuel concerns have helped to destroy most designs where function has to outweigh form and most cars now a days reflect that IMO.
I miss the days of designers getting to build something for a look.

[Nickshu]

I can tell you that when I drove my 911 around no one ever paid a moment's notice to me. Or they assumed I was probably too snobby to talk to. When the Corvair was together (before I started the full restoration) I could not drive that car anywhere without getting mobbed with people, thumbs up from 1/5 passing drivers, people wanting to take photos of it in parking lots, etc.

[Jrboulder]

Well the USA came out of WWII with state of the art industry that didn't get bombed and they didn't have some other country telling them what to do. So obviously they were on top of the auto market for a decade before foreign cars really even became available, and even then it took another 5-10 years to for those foreign cars to be Americanized enough to even be considered by most buyers. Meanwhile domestic automakers were resting on their laurels and not really caring about their cars enough. You know, people were still buying them and all. In 68 and 72 GM was the largest manufacturer of locomotives in the world with a huge order backlog and they were also busy making M16s and tons of other stuff for the military, among many other things. As mentioned earlier, American engineering also had a lot of stuff going on at the time, too.

So it's 1968 and BMW (or Porsche, VW, whoever) has a fun little car that the big 3 really don't intend on competing with. They've certainly got their finger on the pulse of the American car market, a market they built from nothing. For the "auto cognoscenti" it must have been a refreshing break from the DGAF nature of most of the domestics on the market at the time.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

There is also a European Vs American demographic... generally speaking America has (had) wide open spaces, super highways, and (had) cheap gas.
Europe has older narrower roads and expensive gas.
Thus America developed land yachts while Europe developed smaller more efficient cars.

That's a lot of it. Add to that the European auto industry was largely wiped out and they had to start over with new factories and new tooling to meet these demands, while the US industry could continue to evolve naturally.

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

A 210, really? Seems like you could've done better than that.

[fred cook]

By actual count, I have owned 50+ cars and trucks over the years. While I enjoyed the European cars at some level (depending on the car), my favorites have been American for the most part. Given the money and storage space, these are the 10 cars that I would like to own:

1. XKE Jaguar coupe, 1961 - 1967
2, 1957 Ford Thunderbird w/E code engine
3. 1963 - 67 Corvette Stingray
4. 1932 Chrysler Cabriolet w/twin side mounts
5. 1966 or 67 Ford Fairlane GT
6. 2005 Ford GT
7. 1971 Triumph TR6
8. Ferrari Lusso
9. 1970 Plymouth Barracuda w/340 engine
10. 32 Ford Duece Coupe Hot Rod

Of course, I would keep my current vehicles, an F150, a Taurus sedan, an Excursion SUV, a 911SC and a Jaguar XJS convertible. With these cars in the garage, I would be as happy as a tick on a hound dog!

[motion]

My '67 Fairlane GT back in 1981. Are they worth anything these days? Mine only had a 289. If memory serves me, I bought it for $700 and sold it for $900 in 1982.

[pavulon]

Dude, do you really think people were fixated on it being a 210 or read it as a reference to the '55 Chevy in general?

Originally Posted by nkowi

A 210, really? Seems like you could've done better than that.

Also, 66/67 Fairlanes are great looking cars!

[Jim Bremner]

'66 & '67 GT or GTA Fairlanes are pulling $30 to $50k

I had a 1966 Gt 390 in Highland Green in '84 that I paid $3,500 for out of all of the cars that I've owned I miss my '66 the most.

It was hit by a drunk LB cop at 7:30 in the morning.