Cluster-Eff with Mini-Split and Heatpump

[daepp]

Question for the east coaster and New Yorkers:

My daughter has just finished her first year living in NYC and for the last 5 months has been renting a 3 bedroom apartments with two others in a brand new 4 story apartment building in Brooklyn.

She did not like her first roommate (boyfriend did a lot of drugs) and she did not like the old apartment (everything was worn out or dirty). She was on a sub lease month to month.

She was attracted to the new place, well, because it was new. No one had lived in it before, and they were the first tenants for the entire building. Rent is $3,300 split 3 ways, and they were told (orally only) that utilities would be about $100 per month, which is about what they expected. They have all signed an 18 month lease.

Fast forward to June: ConEd just sent them a bill for $1800+. Seems the landlord was too cheap to install a gas line for a conventional boiler. The heat they had all summer was from 3 mini-splits driven by a heat pump. Further, they were billed monthly about $80 per month, which they did not think was unreasonable since it was a nice, new, insulated building. Well, those were all estimated bills, and no one read the very fine print. Con-Ed finally physically read the bill in early June, and billed them for the difference.

The part that makes no sense to me is that if you take their complete usage, it amounts to $14.75 per day or $430 per month. I'm a born and reared So Cal guy, and I know enough not to try to heat with electrons here. We all use gas for the HVAC and hot water. I know it was a bad winter, and I know radiators are a pain, but can it really cost that much to heat a brand new apartment in Brooklyn? Any suggestions for dealing with what is now a defective building?

Thanks in advance - these are all three recent college grads who are making it on their own. They don't need this!

[VincentVega]

It was very cold this past winter. Most heat pumps dont work too well below freezing. Some of the newer Mitsubishi and Fujitsu mini splits work well down to zero or just below, but only on specific models. Not knowing what model heater is installed they might have been using electric resistance heat as backup. Too many unknowns. What was the thermostat set to?

[NY65912]

My son moved into a new place in Brooklyn during the winter. His first Con Ed boll was for $1750. My company bought an old building in Brooklyn (Greenpoint) and essentially demo'ed the structure. The only use of electricity is to power the LED lighting under the sidewalk bridges. We received a $2K bill from Con Ed.

Con Ed is notorius for a crazy high first bill. She's got to ask for a meter reading to straighten this out. They over estimate usage on new accounts. My company did pay the $2 K after much arguing, but we now have a huge credit with them and have not had to pay a bill in over a year.

I bet she's in lovely Greenpoint, Williamsburg, Red Hook or Bushwick.

BTW, the cost for a Kw hour is one of the highest in the counrty here in NYC.

[VincentVega]

Good info. I use Con Ed, but only as a supplier, great rates down here.

[Mark Henry]

We have a mini-split heat pump, they are only considered a 3 season unit. They stop being efficient at about -5C (23F) and pretty well quit working at -8C (17F).

As for heating, old ones are about 8 times more efficient than baseboards and new ones are up to 15 to 20 times more efficient.

[David]

That's a crazy high bill. I figured with A/C loads in Houston we'd have some of the highest electric bills but nothing like that on a residential load.

What's the price per kwh? Have they read their meter over a few days and compared it with what the bill shows they've used?

[dad911]

Some good advice above about actual vs estimated. If she has her own meter, that is her usage.

It may be worth making sure there is nothing else on her meter, and that the meter she thinks is hers, really is. There is a meter# the electric bill. Have her unplug and turn everything off, and see if the meter stops.

I've seen new multi-family or commercial units with the meter#s accidentally swapped.

[daepp]

A few answers:

She moved in around the first of the year - according to ConEd meter reading was 405
They didn't actually read the meter till June 4th, when they say it showed 8697
It appears there are two "costs"
- Supply: $.105 per KwH
- Delivery: $.1176 per KwH
So the cost is 22.26 cents per KwH - does that sound right. Plus misc fees.

There is no gas to the building so any heat came from the mini-split

I don't normally look for scapegoats and I don't ask for handouts, but is there any culpability on the part of the landlord? Isn't it the norm to heat with gas there? Why wouldn't he do so? Go easy on me - I'm from southern Cal - I often wear shorts in the winter...

[David]

22 cents is double what it is in Houston but not unheard of on the East and West coasts. As others have written, a heat pump doesn't usually work much below freezing so it was running full blast and not providing much heating. Heat pump mini-splits are also sold with electric heating strips to help heating below freezing so check if it has them. In the future, some oil filled electric radiator type heaters would work better for less.

I'd check the math on how many watts the mini-split system is times the hours it probably ran over the billing period to determine if the bill seams possible. You could also read the meter, crank up the mini-split for a couple hours and then read the meter again to determine what the power draw is.

[David]

Also make sure Con-ed didn't bill at a higher demand rate due to the bill all being in one month when it should have been spread over several months.

[dad911]

She may also want to check with neighbors if their bill is in line?

They also have electric range/oven & hot water? It all adds up....

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by daepp

So the cost is 22.26 cents per KwH - does that sound right. Plus misc fees.
.

I find the bills hard to understand. I just devide total bill by total kWh used. Here it's about 14 cents per kWh.

[daepp]

I hadn't thought about it kicking her into a higher tier - that may very well be.

Re neighbors - she's gonna attempt that this weekend.

Re the effectiveness of the mini split in cold weather, she has said that it wasn't all that warm inside so you very well may be right there too.

[daepp]

Re the crazy bills, I am an accountant and I find it incredibly difficult to read!

[cashflyer]

Bill for $1800 covers 5 months...
Plus $400 they already paid ($80 * 5)

So... $440 per month.
Assuming there was no service deposit or connection fees in that bill, then yeah, it seems high.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

Bill for $1800 covers 5 months...
Plus $400 they already paid ($80 * 5)

So... $440 per month.
Assuming there was no service deposit or connection fees in that bill, then yeah, it seems high.

I don't think that is high if she has electric heat...

And the bills are hard to read for a reason. And it's not to help the consumer.

[cashflyer]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

I don't think that is high if she has electric heat...

Dunno... I was thinking about it in relation to my house. I have a heat pump. No gas, or etc. Just electric. And even in the coldest part of winter I never see a bill that high for my whole house. Granted, SC winter is not as cold as NY winter.

I would think an apartment, with insulation at modern standards, would do better - even with a mini-split. Could be a big ass apartment, though, or a really undersized heating unit.

[Heel n Toe]

I would think an apartment, with insulation at modern standards, would do better - even with a mini-split.

Hmmmm... that's an assumption... what if the apt. owner had the builder cut corners and the insulation isn't up to modern standards?

Also, is it a ground floor unit? Always harder to heat. I remember having an upstairs apt. for a few years after college. We had it made in the winter because of the heat from the folks below us.

Could be a big ass apartment, though, or a really undersized heating unit.

This made me think of another variable; what temp did these wimmenz keep the thermostat set to? Many wimmenz likez to keep it nice and toasty, you know. It might not be a stretch to say they kept it on 75-78. That could get expensive.

[aigel]

Who lives at the apartment and what is their lifestyle? 3 girls taking 15 minute showers 2x a day? Then run around in flipflops and t-shirt inside?

It makes a very big difference if you can go to 68 vs. 75+ degree inside your home.

I agree that it is insane not to heat with gas or oil in such a climate. But let this be a lecture to your kid and don't look at the landlord being the "bad" guy. You have to think ahead on these things and next place she rents, I am sure she will be more careful. All too often people blame everyone but themselves. I see it especially from parents when their kids mess up ...

Good Luck!

G

[aigel]

Ha - H&T beat me to it. If there are 3 girls living there, I GUARANTEE they are oblivious. Especially if some come from SoCal!

G