Gas Quality question

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by JD159

Sammy,

With your experience I don't question your knowledge on gas "quality". I have zero experience aside from putting the gas into my cars

But what about this??

http://www.maxim-x.com/pix/fuel+filter/Ethanol_in_Ontario.pdf



Can the ethanol vary between companies??

I would be interested in seeing the actual data / test results form the lab. While ethanol blended fuels can experience phase separation resulting in a wide range of results concerning the ethanol concentration, still wanna see the data and how it was tested.

[DanielDudley]

Everybody knows what they know. The truth about gas around here is that it isn't all the same. And of course there are some gas stations that I personally avoid, due to the age of the tanks, and problems I have had in the past. I pulled a solid cup of rust out of a plastic 928 gas tank once. It had to come from somewhere.

Obviously, if I can buy non-ethanol premium here, it will not be the same as any other gas in the region.

As for additives, I do think that doubling the concentration could actually make a difference. You just doubled the concentration. Think about it. I don't really care about how much you know about anything. Facts are facts. How many micro grams of LSD does it take to mess you up ? Care to double that dose ? I buy from certain gas stations, because I know that they have newer tanks in good condition. I buy certain brands, because I trust that they will have the additives, and because I have read dyno tests over the years that seem to imply that certain gas brands DO make a difference.
Obviously, your mileage may vary.

Some people I don't really take seriously, no matter what their credentials are. This is simply due to knowing that there is something about their makeup that requires them to consider themselves right in every instance. IMO, that makes everything they say suspect. Sorry. Once again, double the additives is quite an increase. Anyone who says differently needs to review basic math. Are additive packages important ? MMM, could be, Rabbit, Could Be. But of course, those decisions are made at higher pay grades for obvious reasons. I don't do quantum physics. I am not a chemical engineer. I don't design additive packages. I don't second guess people who do just to save a few bucks a tankful. I can tell you that some chemical compounds will break down under certain conditions, some of which might be present in certain combustion chambers, and not in others. I also know that Nitrogen is an incorruptible element. Under certain conditions where some chemical compounds might break down, Nitrogen might in fact become more ''energetic''. That might not be a bad thing, at certain times, in certain circumstances. Consider specifically that carbon may be built up, or removed, in as small a quantity as one molecule at a time. Over time. Additives.

If you have a tuned car with a larger turbo, buy the gas it was tuned for. Don't be buying your gas all over town.

ZDDP in oil, is measured in PPM. Who needs THAT ???

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Thank you for proving my point about the power of suggestion, the force has a strong influence on the weak mind.

Shell doesn't even make most of the gasoline sold at shell stations.
Shell only owns TWO refineries in the entire US of A, although they have joint ventures in 4 others.
They do not make enough gasoline to supply the shell stations.
A large portion of shell gas stations in the US are owned by OTHER OIL COMPANIES and get their gas from OTHER OIL COMPANIES!!

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NITROGEN ENRICHED GASOLINE.
it's a marketing gimic. And it is working.

I was working at a Shell refinery in 2008 when they came out with their super-duper new and improved V-power premium gasoline.
I asked my buddies in the lab, what changed? They shook their heads and said nuthin, the gas is the same as it's always been. The marketing people just keep dreaming up new names for it.



There is absolutely NO WAY that you could tell the difference immediately qwhen switching ot shell gas, unless you were using too low of an octane before and your car tuned itself up to use the higher octane you put in the car. That is the only way.
Any other claims are simply hogwash and fantasy.

Even shell will admit the gas is the same, but they claim their 2 ounces per gallon of additive are BETTER because they use one ounce of two different detergents (solvents) instead of using 2 oz of one. Again, hogwash.
It's just a brand name and a marketing campaign.



bull ****.


BTW, the same marketing people who came up with V-power also came up with the idea that you need to change your oil every 3000 miles, at a jiffy-lube (shell owned).

Lots of mush-heads bought into that gimic too.

Just so you know, there have been problems with the new direct injection engines. It apparently isn't as easy to keep an injector tip clean in a combustion chamber as it is in an intake port. Of course, there are other issues with direct injection engines, and other problems associated with leaner burns and higher temperatures. Some manufacturers and their chemists are working on problems associated with that.

But you are well read, and an expert, so you must already know that.

Calling people mush heads, and calling BS is just another way of stating an opinion in lieu of actual facts. Be polite, and don't substitute opinions for facts, if in fact you can. No one else here is being rude or insulting. All you are doing is losing the respect of the people you would like to convince of your authority.

You cost yourself, when you try to discredit others in such a manner. Gasoline research is quite different in Europe. As is some of the gas. Maybe someday America will catch up, if the boys in the lab can manage to achieve a better attitude.

[kach22i]

Good posts Dan.

To the "all gas is the same" crowd, you are saying that additives make no difference and that ethanol content makes no difference, right?

Not much to discuss after that level of absurdity is there?

[oilcan]

Haven't read much of the above, except for MD Holliway's response " all off the same rack".
He is entirely correct. Been associated refineries for 35 yrs. Most all majors at our loading racks to fill at their area stations and we visit their racks for stations in their geographic area. Big savings in trucking. What a surprise!

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

Everybody knows what they know. The truth about gas around here is that it isn't all the same. And of course there are some gas stations that I personally avoid, due to the age of the tanks, and problems I have had in the past. I pulled a solid cup of rust out of a plastic 928 gas tank once. It had to come from somewhere.

Obviously, if I can buy non-ethanol premium here, it will not be the same as any other gas in the region.

As for additives, I do think that doubling the concentration could actually make a difference. You just doubled the concentration. Think about it. I don't really care about how much you know about anything. Facts are facts. How many micro grams of LSD does it take to mess you up ? Care to double that dose ? I buy from certain gas stations, because I know that they have newer tanks in good condition. I buy certain brands, because I trust that they will have the additives, and because I have read dyno tests over the years that seem to imply that certain gas brands DO make a difference.
Obviously, your mileage may vary.

Some people I don't really take seriously, no matter what their credentials are. This is simply due to knowing that there is something about their makeup that requires them to consider themselves right in every instance. IMO, that makes everything they say suspect. Sorry. Once again, double the additives is quite an increase. Anyone who says differently needs to review basic math. Are additive packages important ? MMM, could be, Rabbit, Could Be. But of course, those decisions are made at higher pay grades for obvious reasons. I don't do quantum physics. I am not a chemical engineer. I don't design additive packages. I don't second guess people who do just to save a few bucks a tankful. I can tell you that some chemical compounds will break down under certain conditions, some of which might be present in certain combustion chambers, and not in others. I also know that Nitrogen is an incorruptible element. Under certain conditions where some chemical compounds might break down, Nitrogen might in fact become more ''energetic''. That might not be a bad thing, at certain times, in certain circumstances. Consider specifically that carbon may be built up, or removed, in as small a quantity as one molecule at a time. Over time. Additives.

If you have a tuned car with a larger turbo, buy the gas it was tuned for. Don't be buying your gas all over town.

ZDDP in oil, is measured in PPM. Who needs THAT ???

Dan, I have spent 20 years in the fuel and lubricant business. I spent 15 years in the world of additives and another 5 in the world of analysis (oils and fuels). I have had direct contact with all the majors and a bunch of the Indys. I have also worked directly wit the 5 that basically control the add-pact world. Do I use additives? Nope. Why/ because as far as I have seen it a bunch of snake oil. While there are certain chemicals that go into different oils and even fuels that would provide certain functionality, these applications and examples are a fools errand for the casual user that pretty much all here are. As for fuel, believe what you will. Sammy, a few others and myself are in the business. Its what we do. if you don't believe us and choose to believe what you will then there is really nothing more to say.

[Jandrews]

Some good information here. How about a choice between 91 octane non-ethanol, and 93 octane with ethanol? Which one would be a better choice for a "modern" Porsche that recommends 93 RON?

Thanks,

JA

[M.D. Holloway]

I would always opt for ethanol free, too many instances where the ethanol soaks up water. If I could get 93 ethanol free in Tx I would.

[javadog]

I ran an '08 Boxster S for 6 years on 91 octane pure gas, with no ill effects. It rarely saw much full throttle use or a lot of revs, so I doubt it often got to the point that it had to correct the timing for the octane level.

I hate ethanol.

JR

[Mark Henry]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

I would always opt for ethanol free, too many instances where the ethanol soaks up water. If I could get 93 ethanol free in Tx I would.

On a daily driver, a newer FI car that is really used every day, ethanol laced fuel is likely OK, I've never had fuel issues with the wife's or my DD's on regular with 10%.
On any car that may sit for any period of time, even just a week (and any older car even if it's a DD) I will only use pure gas.


One thing I've always noticed about regular 10% is that within days it starts to smell like it's going sour. Where as pure gas, in a sealed gas can, will last a couple months before it starts to smell off.

[M.D. Holloway]

That's why you always want a very full tank. The less airspace the less souring.

[Mark Henry]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

That's why you always want a very full tank. The less airspace the less souring.

Totally agree and is what I always try to do, I'm just stating all things equal I always notice E10 gas going sour very quickly.

[J P Stein]

Sammy:

Are you still working for Valero? A Valero "station" (mini mart) recently opened up
the street. Would you recommend buying gas there?....91 octane for passes premium for my boosted Miata.


"Others" need not respond.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

Sammy:

Are you still working for Valero? A Valero "station" (mini mart) recently opened up
the street. Would you recommend buying gas there?....91 octane for passes premium for my boosted Miata.


"Others" need not respond.

I left Valero in 2004.


EDIT: Valero does not have a refinery in that region, the closest one would be in the bay area near Frisco. So I doubt that gas is made by Valero.
Most likely Shell, Tesoro, BP or Phillips 66.



Up there, as with So Cal, 91 octane is 91 octane.

All ethanol is the same too, and it all sux.

If you can actually get real 91 octane without ethanol that is much better than with.

Ethanol has less btus per volume but artificially increases octane rating. It fools the engine into thinking it has higher octane than it really has.

non-ethanol 91 octane should cost at least 50 cents/gallon more.

But with the federal mandates, it is difficult to actually find road-use gasoline without ethanol.

The problem soon will be, where can I find 10% ethanol instead of 15% ethanol gas?

[J P Stein]

>EDIT: Valero does not have a refinery in that region, the closest one would be in the bay area near Frisco. So I doubt that gas is made by Valero.
Most likely Shell, Tesoro, BP or Phillips 66.<

Humm.....I suspected something like that.........thus the Q. Thanks

[astrochex]

I can't agree with the all gas is the same crowd when my car clearly runs better on Union 76 than Arco.

[Lyle O]

It is pretty funny reading all of this, as I was with Bosch back in the '80s when we introduced fuel injection broadly to the US OEMs. All of them began having problems with clogging injectors, which, of course they blamed on us. However, we had no such problems in Europe. We quickly determined that it was all driven by the quality of the gas (type and quantity of additives) that would result in performance issues. In the US, major brands like Shell and Mobile were no issue, but there were so many smaller and generic providers that did not formulate at all appropriately. This was not the case in Europe, where formulations were much better (and they were still using largely leaded gas). As they transitioned to unleaded later than we did, the additive packages were more thoroughly formulated. Since the injectors were developed in Europe, they were, in fact, designed to run high quality fuels with appropriate detergent additives. Bosch had to make design changes to the injectors to accommodate this discrepancy.

Interestingly, if you fast-forward to today, there is another emerging issue regarding fuel quality: oligomer leaching from plastic fuel lines. plastic fuel lines have an inner layer of PA12 typically (high grade nylon). The problem is that in some regions (especially China) there are additives which are causing a break down in the polymer chain, and the resultant leached-out material clogs up the fuel system. Today, my company is a major supplier of fuel lines to OEMs around the world, and we are developing tube constructions with different materiials to address this. Bottom line, I learned a long time ago that quality of fuels matter, and this never changes.
Lyle.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

The problem soon will be, where can I find 10% ethanol instead of 15% ethanol gas?

The new mandates will force more ethanol on everyone, everywhere. This means finding 100% gasoline will also become more difficult.

I miss the old days when gas actually had a good smell. It may sound weird but I have memories as a kid of riding on the back of my Dad's motorcycle. It must have had a a tiny fuel leak somewhere because I always associate that bike with that unique gasoline aroma.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Lyle O

It is pretty funny reading all of this, as I was with Bosch back in the '80s when we introduced fuel injection broadly to the US OEMs. All of them began having problems with clogging injectors, which, of course they blamed on us. However, we had no such problems in Europe. We quickly determined that it was all driven by the quality of the gas (type and quantity of additives) that would result in performance issues. In the US, major brands like Shell and Mobile were no issue, but there were so many smaller and generic providers that did not formulate at all appropriately.

I remember those days...

At the time I was running the service department of a new car dealership with 4 different franchises. Electronic fuel injection was increasingly more common and driveability issues were getting bad. Clogged injectors, intake valve deposits... Lots of technical service bulletins were handed out from the manufacturers.

At that time, Phillips 66 still had their headquarters in Oklahoma and their R&D department bought vehicles from us to use in the testing of their additive packages. I know they were pretty serious about solving the problems and I
imagine they were not alone.

The infernal government has mandated so many changes to fuels in the last 30-40 years, I'm surprised it still burns. Even the alcohol-free crap that is sold now is worse in a number of ways than what I remember existing before the changes began in earnest.

JR