Any Rolex experts? Frankenwatch of rarer variation?

[LeeH]

This showed up on my local Facebook page. Been talking with the seller.
Not sure if this is a Franken-watch, or variation that I just can't find.

Case is marked 16610 with a serial number of R919973 (1988). I was told that the bezel insert font suggests it's from a 16613. Gold letters and hour markers would usually be accompanied by gold bezel, crown, and band center links - at least that's what I mostly see.

I can buy it for $1000. Thoughts? It's a little grungy, but seems to run just fine.

[jorian]

Good deal. The movement alone is worth that much.

[Hugh R]

If he pulled the backing, the machining is looking like junk to me. The machining in the last picture of the clasp looks like it was hammered out with a ball-pen hammer in China. No finished edges on the rivets. It should look like this.

Picture isn't really good, but the pin in the center of the pic is a pin that is rounded over, you're picture doesn't show it. It shows a push pin.

I say junk.

[Hugh R]

Buy it through escrow going through a Rolex dealer. To verify, might cost you $100. If he won't do that, fold.

[Hugh R]

Going price for those used is $8 Grand, or more, what do you think?

[LeeH]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

If he pulled the backing, the machining is looking like junk to me. The machining in the last picture of the clasp looks like it was hammered out with a ball-pen hammer in China. No finished edges on the rivets. It should look like this.

Picture isn't really good, but the pin in the center of the pic is a pin that is rounded over, you're picture doesn't show it. It shows a push pin.

I say junk.

The band is definitely suspect. Doesn't have the quality feel.... but I had a guy tell me on a watch forum that he had a 100% genuine Sub from the 80s and it didn't have the quality feel that you'd expect.

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Buy it through escrow going through a Rolex dealer. To verify, might cost you $100. If he won't do that, fold.

She took it to a Rolex dealer today and they confirmed the movement and face are original.

[LeeH]

Taken through a hand-held magnifier...

[HHI944]

I know a lot of guys that treat their Subs like legos in regards to the faces and bezel inserts.

That price would make me nervous. If everything were legit, even with a replacement insert, she shouldn't have a problem getting more than that from the right gold/pawn.

[LeeH]

Originally Posted by HHI944

I know a lot of guys that treat their Subs like legos in regards to the faces and bezel inserts.

That price would make me nervous. If everything were legit, even with a replacement insert, she shouldn't have a problem getting more than that from the right gold/pawn.

She received it as a gift from an boyfriend a long time ago and knew nothing about it. When she first showed it to me she said, "Obviously it's going to need a new battery."

Has the box and receipt where it (or some Rolex, anyway) was purchased from a jewelry store in 1992.

[Rinty]

If you decide to buy it, you can send it in to Rolex for a service, and it'll come back looking like new. While it's in there, you can get their advice on what to do about the bracelet.

Here's a book on the sports models:

VINTAGE ROLEX SPORTS MODELS: A Complete Visual Reference and Unauthorized History: Amazon.co.uk: MARTIN SKEET: 9780764329814: Books

Good luck.

[GeorgeK]

You might not like whatRorlex say about the Watch when they get it. If any part is not original to the watch (even if they are genuine rolex parts), they either swap them for new ones and keep whatever they take off, or refuse to touch the watch.
Rolex are the *****iest company ever with their products when it comes to having them serviced.

Or, you can have it serviced by an independent, who won't blink, and tell you if it's a fake.

[widgeon13]

Looks like a good knockoff to me. I wouldn't touch it.

Good luck.

Here's a Rolex Daytona on Craigs List for $600. This is at least a 10 grand watch. If it's real!!

https://albany.craigslist.org/jwl/5233746121.html

[Chocaholic]

Probably the most faked watch in history.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by LeeH

She took it to a Rolex dealer today and they confirmed the movement and face are original.

If she (or the dealer) is claiming that the dial and bezel insert are original, they are wrong. They look to be genuine at first glance, but certainly not original to that case. If in fact the case is marked 16610, it is a stainless Submariner Date. The blue dial and bezel insert were only available on the two-tone and all gold models, and those pictured are from an older all-gold model (16808).

The fakes are getting ridiculously good these days though. Here are a few things you can do/check to help confirm if it's real or not:

* Unscrew the winding crown (counter-clockwise), and pull out to the last position to set the time. Along with a "hacking" second hand, the hour/minute hands should advance time forward when the crown is turned clockwise (most of the ETA/knock-off movements made to look like Rolex movements will only advance time forward when turned counter-clockwise)

* Remove the bracelet and look at the engravings between the lugs. Specifically look at the "E" in all of the words. The middle bar in all of them should be shorter than the tops and bottoms (magnification helps here). If not, it's fake.

* Gently shake the watch next to your ear. If you can hear and feel the rotor spinning, it's fake.

* If the bezel turns both ways, it's fake.

* The “T - <25” at the bottom of the dial indicates it’s an older tritium-lumed dial. It should not glow any longer (or be “charged” by light). If so, the dial is most likely fake (it could have been re-lumed at some point, but it’s not very likely).

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by LeeH

The band is definitely suspect. Doesn't have the quality feel.... but I had a guy tell me on a watch forum that he had a 100% genuine Sub from the 80s and it didn't have the quality feel that you'd expect.

I'd certainly want to check it out thoroughly, as genuine Oyster bracelets are uber-expensive and not having a real one will impact the value substantially. If you can post some more pics of the inner clasp blades and outer flip-lock, I should be able to tell you. It appears to have the correct (501B) end-pieces at least. Also, the number peeking out on that end-link should be “93150”. That number should also appear on the inside of the right clasp blade, as well as a date code with 1 or 2 letters and 1 or 2 numbers. The letter(s) corresponds to the bracelet production year. The number(s) corresponds to the month of that year. For an R-series Sub, the clasp code should start with a K, L, or M, followed by a number between 1 and 12.



Here's the end link and clasp from one of my Subs for reference:

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

Here's a Rolex Daytona on Craigs List for $600. This is at least a 10 grand watch. If it's real!!

https://albany.craigslist.org/jwl/5233746121.html

Now that's an easy-to-spot fake.

[mgatepi]

I have a GMT Master I bought new from a local dealer in 1986. My bezel moves in both directions, my bracelet looks pretty much like this one. Also, when I hold it up to my ear and shake it, I can hear the rotor. I have had mine serviced 2 times by Rolex, so I know mine is real. Not so sure you can use the requirements listed above for the older Rolex's.

[LeeH]

The bezel is a bit of a mystery. Although, I did find a watchmaker's blog where he refinishes what he calls a 16610 that is blue/gold. Date code on the bracelet matches the date code on the watch.

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

If she (or the dealer) is claiming that the dial and bezel insert are original, they are wrong. They look to be genuine at first glance, but certainly not original to that case. If in fact the case is marked 16610, it is a stainless Submariner Date. The blue dial and bezel insert were only available on the two-tone and all gold models, and those pictured are from an older all-gold model (16808).

The fakes are getting ridiculously good these days though. Here are a few things you can do/check to help confirm if it's real or not:

* Unscrew the winding crown (counter-clockwise), and pull out to the last position to set the time. Along with a "hacking" second hand, the hour/minute hands should advance time forward when the crown is turned clockwise (most of the ETA/knock-off movements made to look like Rolex movements will only advance time forward when turned counter-clockwise)

Second hand does hack. Clockwise=advance.

* Remove the bracelet and look at the engravings between the lugs. Specifically look at the "E" in all of the words. The middle bar in all of them should be shorter than the tops and bottoms (magnification helps here). If not, it's fake.



* Gently shake the watch next to your ear. If you can hear and feel the rotor spinning, it's fake.

Cannot hear or feel the rotor moving... at all.

* If the bezel turns both ways, it's fake.
Bezel is missing the spacer/spring. Don't know why. This would require parts to fix, but everything looks "normal" when the bezel is off.

* The “T - <25” at the bottom of the dial indicates it’s an older tritium-lumed dial. It should not glow any longer (or be “charged” by light). If so, the dial is most likely fake (it could have been re-lumed at some point, but it’s not very likely).

No glow at all.

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by mgatepi

I have a GMT Master I bought new from a local dealer in 1986. My bezel moves in both directions, my bracelet looks pretty much like this one. Also, when I hold it up to my ear and shake it, I can hear the rotor. I have had mine serviced 2 times by Rolex, so I know mine is real. Not so sure you can use the requirements listed above for the older Rolex's.

Don't believe bezel ever moved in both directions. They don't work that way. Never have. Except on fakes, and rarely even at that.

[bkreigsr]

Originally Posted by Rinty

If you decide to buy it, you can send it in to Rolex for a service, and it'll come back looking like new. While it's in there, you can get their advice on what to do about the bracelet.

I was told that Rolex is no longer accepting repair/restore/refurbishment of watches older than 25 years. The jeweler that did mine in August employed a certified repairman that was on call.
Bill K