Primary car - I might need some sense talked into me

[Otter74]

I am relatively new to this forum (I joined in May and bought my SC Targa about two months ago), and in that short time I've spent more time reading a lot and finding answers to my questions by searching and trying to pay attention, so I have not posted a lot. But a few recent threads here and the responses gave me the idea that it would be worth pinging y'all on a non-Porsche question.

Driving is not something I do for daily transportation - I live in Chicago and ride my bikes everywhere, or walk for distances under 1.5 miles and also use the trains. I drive my 911 for fun, whenever I can think of an excuse to do so (not too hard), whenever I am driving somewhere and don't need a 4-door sedan with a trunk or air conditioning, etc.

My primary car is a 2003 Honda Accord with a 4-cylinder and an automatic. I bought it in 2011 with 15k miles on it and it was not what I would normally buy (mostly because of the automatic), but it was too good to pass up (family car, bought it for a lot less than it was worth.) After a road trip a year ago that involved extensive driving in the mountain west and desert southwest, I felt sort of fed up with the car's dynamic meh-ness and especially that damn automatic transmission and the mediocre fuel economy (even with the roof rack off, I won't crack 30mpg unless I keep it under 70mph). The car currently has about 50k miles on it and is in great condition except for a drooping headliner (!@$#!) and external cosmetics from my grandfather's last year or two of driving (he tended to bump stuff.) Although I have had to replace an alternator, fix the AC (condenser leak) and put on an extra set of tires (cupping) and it's due for brakes now, it is easy to service, reliable and really cheap to run and will continue to be so for a long time.

And yet I find myself wanting continually over the last year to replace it; what's more, I seem to be leaning towards used German cars. Top candidates are 2006-8 Audi A3, 2002-6 Audi A4 Avant, 2006-8 VW GTI, and then going to slightly older stuff, BMW E34, E39 or E46 wagons (all with manuals.) I even consider W123 and W124 Mercedes wagons, despite being automatic-only. Top non-German candidates are 1st-generation Mazda 3 hatchbacks and Mazda 6 hatchbacks/wagons.

My criteria for a Honda replacement are fun to drive; manual transmission; hatchback or wagon; sunroof; easy for DIY maintenance; reliable given that I drive a max of 10k miles per year for all cars combined (including the 911, which I now choose whenever I can) and most of that is highway trips. The cost criterion is that it has to cost no more than appx. what the Honda is worth, which I figure means about a $7500 cap. (I don't buy new cars, don't buy anything I can't pay cash for, and buying the 911 means no extra cash in the budget for spending more on a primary car)

If I found a really nice Mazda 3 or Mazda 6 with very low mileage and a good ownership/maintenance history, I think I'd be on sound footing replacing my car. It's hard to find such a car, but they do come around occasionally (I've looked at a few.) The German cars, however....well, I am attracted to them because they are fun to drive and really engaging; and also practical. In the case of the Audis and VW, they will get better mileage than my Honda, too. It is very hard or impossible to find such a car (esp. the older BMWs) with under 100k miles (though I did see a really nice 75k mile manual E39 525iT in Atlanta last week) and c'mon, everyone knows these are going to cost me a lot more to run (parts costs, frequency of stuff that needs fixiing or replacing) than a Honda. After all, no one talks about the need to replace most of the cooling system every 60k miles on a Honda (see re: BMW)

Do I need to have some sense slapped into me with a frozen bass for even thinking of replacing my Accord with a used Audi or BMW? Before the Honda I drove a '96 Infiniti G20t, which was a great car. Before that, a '93 Sentra SE-R, which is the most reliable thing I've ever owned (it required absolutely nothing but replacement of consumables until 180k miles) I still have the SE-R, but I have not driven it in years and it is in the garage for an engine drop to replace rod bearings and do 10 other smaller things. The Honda may be boring, but it's cheap, reliable, comfortable. It's not great to drive, but it's not awful, either. If it had a manual transmission I wouldn't even be thinking about a replacement (I vastly prefer hatchbacks, but I can live with a trunk if it has a fold-down back seat) Is it really possible to own something like an E39 BMW or B6 Audi or A3 and not spend 2x on ownership costs? I admit that since I got the 911 I think less of replacing the Honda, but I can't stop looking.

Sorry for the book! I really did try to edit for length.

[LeeH]

Much discussed here. I went down this same road and back again.

Readers Digest version (Executive Summary?) according to me:

The German car will cost more - premium gas, insurance, parts.
You have to decide if it's worth it.
Newer Audis are much more reliable than older Audis.
Mazdas are way more fun to drive than Hondas.

[onewhippedpuppy]

So the big question is what you intend to use it for? You have an SC for a fun weekend driver. Sounds like you have an SE-R project (cool cars btw). You don't need a daily driver because of public transit in Chicago. For road trips, why not use the SC or just grab a rental? So what do you intend to use it for?

Any of the cars you mentioned will fall somewhere in between a driver and project. Driver because they are still modern enough to be semi-reliable, have good creature comforts, and be enjoyable, and project because any $7500 German car will require some TLC. Is an A6 or 540i cool enough that you want to spend your weekends wrenching on it? Because you will. In some ways it seems to be an answer to a problem that you don't actually have.

I'll offer up a couple other suggestions:

1. Sell the Accord because you don't like it and don't need it. Fix the SE-R. A well sorted SE-R will be as much fun and more reliable than anything else that you mentioned. I have to think that $7500 would buy you a new motor and just about anything else that car could possibly need. For that matter you could probably do an SR20DET swap with money to spare. As a bonus it will hold its value much better than an average German sedan that will depreciate to nothing.

2. Sell the Accord because you don't like it and don't need it. Put that money into your SC to fix anything it might need and fully sort it, such that you can use it as a real car when necessary. A well sorted SC will take you anywhere you want to go. Worst case if the weather is terrible you can just rent a car. As a bonus, SC values are only going up, so you'll get that money back (and then some).

[LEAKYSEALS951]

I'll take the first slap



Really- get what ever you want, but, I would recommend purchasing something that is the direct antithesis to your sc.

For example- The SC is a small two seat sports car. It gives you all the feedback you could ever need if you need that fix. So- for argument's sake, buy the opposite,
A four door sedan. wagon that can carry your bikes in numb AC/Heated seats comfort and you can use to do everything the SC cannot.

I own an SC myself- and here are my thoughts-

The SC will break. You will at some point spend time/$/energy fixing it. That's okay- but you do NOT want to be fixing TWO cars simultaneosly. Life is too short to be fixing two cars. The second car NEEDS to be dependable. Yes- SC's are dependable, but it is a 33+ or older year old car. That's why it will always need TLC.

You ride a bike- get something that will accept your current roof racks with a minimium of extra expense and you will not give a $#$T getting in the car all dirty and wet.

Consider automatic- numb? yes- but here's why. I ride too- if you break a leg (experience talking)- you may need an automatic. Also- on road trips- you might want your girlfriend to drive. Automatic a plus.

Oh yeah- something quiet. After many miles in the 911- it's nice to have a quiet car where you can crank some music and actually hear it.

Consider something that can carry as much crap as possible. My second car is a volvo station wagon. I'm not recommending it, but I CAN carry a 4x8 sheet of plywood in it. I had to buy it when I broke my leg (from cycling) and my two manual porsches became driveway ornaments.

You've already got the SC- My recommendation is to get the exact opposite to make your "fleet" as capable as possible. I would hold for a mazda.

[Macroni]

I purchased a 99 Boxster w/ a hard top for $12,4 after taxes tires and service $18,0 ish....ended up being my DD..... it has been a hoot.....powerful, nimble.... good looking...... would have never guessed I would enjoy it so much.......

[masraum]

Hmm, Accord that you own that's reliable, but boring, or well used German sedan to replace said reliable Accord.

Yeah, I think you need a good slapping. The German car probably will be more fun, but I suspect, that unless you get lucky and get one of the really good ones (which seems to be a crap shoot) that you'll end up spending 2x - 4x the amount in maintenance on the German car that you do on the accord.

I vote that you spend some money on the Nissan, or spend a little on the Accord. Change the wheels and tires and maybe swaybars on the accord to make the driving a bit more fun (you'll still be stuck with the slushbox), or spend some more money and repair the Nissan mechanicals and maybe even any minor interior or exterior cosmetic issues.

[Otter74]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

So the big question is what you intend to use it for? You have an SC for a fun weekend driver. Sounds like you have an SE-R project (cool cars btw). You don't need a daily driver because of public transit in Chicago. For road trips, why not use the SC or just grab a rental? So what do you intend to use it for?

-Out-of-town trips, e.g. Chicago-Atlanta-Detroit-Chicago for Christmas and NYE, weekend trips to Detroit (about 3x/year) either solo with a bike, or with my girlfriend and two bikes
-occasional driving in the city (high-volume shopping trips, every once in a while I just feel like it)
-going anywhere in the winter when there is salt everywhere
-trips where I need to transport more than one passenger (some of my friends here do not have cars) or need to carry a non-small amount of stuff
-I tend to take a bike with me on any trip of weekend duration or longer. I don't have a bike solution for the Targa yet, though I'm looking. (I'd already have a rack on it if I'd bought a coupe, but I preferred a Targa because I thought I'd be giving up my Fiat Spider and I wanted an open-top car, plus I could get a better car for the money)

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Any of the cars you mentioned will fall somewhere in between a driver and project. Driver because they are still modern enough to be semi-reliable, have good creature comforts, and be enjoyable, and project because any $7500 German car will require some TLC. Is an A6 or 540i cool enough that you want to spend your weekends wrenching on it? Because you will. In some ways it seems to be an answer to a problem that you don't actually have.

It's true that while I like working on cars and I've done it for about 20 years now, I want my primary car to be something that doesn't need a lot of regular work, and doesn't need much more than normal maintenance and replacing stuff that wears out. This is why Japanese cars seem so smart. My work on the Honda mostly consists of an annual oil change, an alternator, battery and, next weekend, brakes. I've driven a B6 Audi, and thought it was terrific to drive. I've driven a friend's Mk 6 GTI and it was tons of fun. Practical, reliable (for him), and even his wife likes it so much she's sort of taken it over. On these cars I favor the more reliable varieties (e.g. no V8 BMWs, no DSGs, etc.)

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

1. Sell the Accord because you don't like it and don't need it. Fix the SE-R. A well sorted SE-R will be as much fun and more reliable than anything else that you mentioned. I have to think that $7500 would buy you a new motor and just about anything else that car could possibly need. For that matter you could probably do an SR20DET swap with money to spare. As a bonus it will hold its value much better than an average German sedan that will depreciate to nothing.

2. Sell the Accord because you don't like it and don't need it. Put that money into your SC to fix anything it might need and fully sort it, such that you can use it as a real car when necessary. A well sorted SC will take you anywhere you want to go. Worst case if the weather is terrible you can just rent a car. As a bonus, SC values are only going up, so you'll get that money back (and then some).

Selling the Accord after I got the SE-R back on the road (meaning probably next spring or summer) was originally part of the deal I made with myself to buy the 911. But I spent a lot less money than I thought I would have to spend on the 911, enough less to account for the value of the Accord. I love the SE-R. It was my daily from 1993-2004 and my backup car from 2004-2008. Still no rust on it (!!) I'm not sure how I could even think of how to spend $7500 on that car. I could put a VE in it for 1000. Rod bearings and the other engine-bay stuff will take about $100 and several whole weekends' worth of work if I ever actually get moving and make decent progress. Under my prior deal with myself, I would sell the Accord, put the money in the bank, and go back to driving the SE-R for trips and winter (I have snow tires/wheels for it, and with those and the LSD it's great in snow.) The SE-R is not worth a lot of money but has a ton of sentimental value to me.

My SC is already very well sorted (it was my top criterion when I was shopping for a car.) I drove it home from Atlanta and have put about 3k miles on it, with no problems other than the shift coupler bushings finishing their disintegration, which cost me $0 and an hour to fix. I'm confident in driving it anywhere at any time. I am not about to subject it to winter, however, and I regularly need or really, really want a decent amount of room and the ability to carry passengers and stuff.

Yes, I still may just drive it for another 6-9 months and sell it without replacement (it will probably sell itself) whenever I finally get the SE-R done (I do not have good follow-through with projects!) But I have felt like I may need talking out of my desire for something German that is practical and fun, even if only for the next year....

[masraum]

How about an Acura or Lexus? You can get one of those with the reliability of a Honda or Toyota, but with a bit more focus on driving dynamics.

[Otter74]

Thanks - you've made a great case for keeping the Honda and doing nothing Because "antithesis" is a pretty good descriptor of my Honda wrt my 911. On that basis, I could only justify replacing it if I get a Japanese hatchback/wagon. The Honda is comfortable, has good seats, good AC, good everything (except transmission performance), quiet, refined. I drove it again a month after I got my SC home and it felt like I was driving my sofa by comparison. And, indeed, since I now own three old cars (the SC, the SE-R, and a Fiat Spider Turbo that that is at the rolling-restoration-project phase). And as for my girlfriend, she drives a Mk 4 Golf with a manual, and I don't think she'd ever buy an automatic for herself I do really like old Volvo wagons (the last childhood mom-mobile was a 740 Turbo wagon) but they seem to fit in the same category as "old German car"

I can't see much point in spending money on the Honda other than maintaining it and fixing the damn headliner, maybe putting good struts on it when the OEs wear out, if I keep it that long. The Nissan doesn't need much money (I have boxes of parts, I just need to spend time on it). The Fiat could certainly use some money spent on it if I want to fix the bodywork and repaint it.

Anyway, thank you for the slap

Originally Posted by LEAKYSEALS951

I'll take the first slap

Really- get what ever you want, but, I would recommend purchasing something that is the direct antithesis to your sc.

For example- The SC is a small two seat sports car. It gives you all the feedback you could ever need if you need that fix. So- for argument's sake, buy the opposite,
A four door sedan. wagon that can carry your bikes in numb AC/Heated seats comfort and you can use to do everything the SC cannot.

I own an SC myself- and here are my thoughts-

The SC will break. You will at some point spend time/$/energy fixing it. That's okay- but you do NOT want to be fixing TWO cars simultaneosly. Life is too short to be fixing two cars. The second car NEEDS to be dependable. Yes- SC's are dependable, but it is a 33+ or older year old car. That's why it will always need TLC.

You ride a bike- get something that will accept your current roof racks with a minimium of extra expense and you will not give a $#$T getting in the car all dirty and wet.

Consider automatic- numb? yes- but here's why. I ride too- if you break a leg (experience talking)- you may need an automatic. Also- on road trips- you might want your girlfriend to drive. Automatic a plus.

Oh yeah- something quiet. After many miles in the 911- it's nice to have a quiet car where you can crank some music and actually hear it.

Consider something that can carry as much crap as possible. My second car is a volvo station wagon. I'm not recommending it, but I CAN carry a 4x8 sheet of plywood in it. I had to buy it when I broke my leg (from cycling) and my two manual porsches became driveway ornaments.

You've already got the SC- My recommendation is to get the exact opposite to make your "fleet" as capable as possible. I would hold for a mazda.

[onewhippedpuppy]

If you really just despise the Accord, you could make a compromise and get a more enjoyable Japanese hatchback/wagon. It would check all of your practicality boxes and still be more fun than the Accord, but equally reliable. In that price range you could easily find a Subaru WRX, Subaru Legacy GT wagon, Subaru Forester XT wagon, Lexus IS wagon, Mazda3 hatchback, Mazda Protege5, Mazda6 hatchback, Honda Fit, Acura RSX, Acura Integra, Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe, and probably a few more that I'm forgetting.

The worst thing about your suggestions is that a $7500 German sedan would likely be even less reliable than your SC. Trust me I've been there and learned my lesson, I've had a number of cheap European cars over the years.

[SCadaddle]

My DD is a 98 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon AWD with 234,000 miles on it. Automatic as well. At 70 mph on the highway with the windows up and the A/C blasting I can hear a pin drop. I like that.

When I jump in my SC, I'll have fun for an hour or so, after that I sometimes wonder why I even own the damn thing.....no A/C and on the highway at 70 need a pair of Dave Clark headsets to communicate with a passenger.

I guess I'm getting old.

[Charles Freeborn]

Our DD is a Subaru. If I didn't need the cargo capacity of the Outback I'd look at one of their sporty models. So far it's been a great car, and the Wrx type models I see at track days haul butt...
-C

[Otter74]

Thanks - I'm going to try to listen to this no-German-car message, though it still seems to me that something newer (2006-8) would be OK as far as reliability and maintenance cost goes. Specifically, Mk 6 VWs (GTI, GLI or 2006 TDI) and Audi A3s (same platform, good reliability record). E.g. saw an apparently good-looking and well-maintained 06 TDI on CL with under 100k for 7500, which seems rather underpriced. Do I need talking out of these, too?

I don't despise the Accord, at least not any more. It's just....meh. When I got back from my road trip I sort of did despise it. By summer I didn't, and after I got my SC it somehow seemed to become better If I could find a 2006-7 V6/6MT Accord sedan with low mileage and good maintenance, it would be a strong candidate (well, whaddaya know: 2007 Black Honda Accord EXL Sedan 6 Speed)

Or here's a nice Saabaru: 2005 Saab 9-2X Linear AWD I am a bit suspicious of Subaru head gasket issues, though.

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

If you really just despise the Accord, you could make a compromise and get a more enjoyable Japanese hatchback/wagon. It would check all of your practicality boxes and still be more fun than the Accord, but equally reliable. In that price range you could easily find a Subaru WRX, Subaru Legacy GT wagon, Subaru Forester XT wagon, Lexus IS wagon, Mazda3 hatchback, Mazda Protege5, Mazda6 hatchback, Honda Fit, Acura RSX, Acura Integra, Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe, and probably a few more that I'm forgetting.

The worst thing about your suggestions is that a $7500 German sedan would likely be even less reliable than your SC. Trust me I've been there and learned my lesson, I've had a number of cheap European cars over the years.

[onewhippedpuppy]

VWs aren't reliable when they are new. Age only makes them worse. Any German car in that price range will be old enough with enough miles that best case it will nickle and dime you to death, worst case suffer a major failure. Even the little stuff gets annoying, like replacing window regulators in your E46 every six months. It is death by one thousand cuts, so again the question - how much do you like wrenching?

Btw, any of those cars will probably also require a substantial effort to baseline them. Deferred maintenance, worn out shocks, cosmetic issues, etc. Because of the high repair cost there are almost always neglect related issues.

[look 171]

sound like you have something good going on and screw it up based on the fact you are bored with a otherwise great working car. Based on your needs, the Accord seem to be a perfect match. Well, a small SUV would be a better choice, but the accord fit your needs perfectly based on what you tell us. Plus, the milage shouldn't matter based on the amour you drive yearly. I never understood having great handling car for the long why hauls. How fat are you really going to go around corners with all that crap in the car? Power is what you need, not handling IMO.

[LakeCleElum]

V-6 Accord or about any newer Mazda.......

[bri450sl]

I owned a 2006 Mazda 6. Was a great vehicle despite the auto trans. The best part about it was the way it felt on the highway. So planted. It made me understand the term "driving on rails". I'm still trying to get my 993 to feel that way.

[Arizona_928]

I would stay away from the 07-12 Sentra. Notorious for bad transmissions. Like went through 3 within couple thousand miles.

[petrolhead611]

Whats wrong with a Ford for a DD? Either the Focus wagon, or the Fusion wagon. Good to drive, cheap parts, and certainly in diesel form like mine,very economical

[1990C4S]

I would not suggest a Mazda for anyone living in a state that uses salt on the roads....

Great cars for California...not so great in the north.