We need to do a range day after it's rained in so cal so we can fire off surplus steel jacket ammo

I do like 9mm better for a pistol caliber rifle plus there's 9mm carbine ammo I guess that I'll need to pick up a 9mm carbine. 45 acp doesn't shoot as flat

All depends on what other rifle characteristics you choose!
 

If you are going short barrel or carbine sized weapon then you pick the round appropriate for that (intermediate sized) and if long barrel/heavy barrels the same (move to the 308). If you are going after lightweight carry, then would you be using mega round magazines with large ammo? Maybe, but probably not!

I can't believe no one has mentioned the venerable Mini 14. Now, you guys know I'm no "black rifle" guy, so maybe I'm biased, but I've just had a ball with mine since I picked it up last spring. That, and I can't believe how cheap it is to shoot this thing - using cheap bulk bullets, and only 25 grains of powder, primers are my biggest expense. I can still shoot darn near as cheap (or cheaper than) if I bought .22 rimfire from the scalpers at the gun shows.

There is a lot to be said for the pistol caliber carbines as well. My preference, of course, runs to the lever guns, but one would be hard pressed to find more cheap fun than a .38 Special / .357 mag carbine can provide. For the non-reloader, lead bullet .38 Special is about as cheap as it gets. Then, if you ever so desire, stoked with hot .357's, you have an entirely viable deer rifle that will actually nip at the heels of factory .30-30 loads. Brian Pearce lists some loads that get 150-158 grain bullets well up over 2,000 fps.These will dump any whitetail that ever lived, without suffering the obnoxious recoil of the bigger lever guns, like the .45-70 and such.

I just got in from shooting my Ruger Ranch. At 100 yards I'm good to go. I keep it on my Polaris.

I wish we had shot it when you were here, Matt, it is a viable weapon.

My favorite gun is the M1A Carbine. Find one in reasonable shape...I have a WWII edition that makes me smile every time.

I couldn't agree more. My suggestion to look at pcc's stemmed from how much fun I had with a lever action .357. But, we're going into the weeds here. He was asking about a modern sporting rifle (code for an AR). Personally, I believe that no handgun round benefits more from a carbine barrel, than the .357 magnum. I believe that a semi-auto carbine in .357 would be an incredible weapon inside of 200 yards. And frankly there are few (not none, and I know some of you are here) who can use a carbine at ranges that exceed 200 yards. Magazines are the big problem with the rimmed round. But this: FM-9 9mm Belt Fed AR-15/M-16 Upper Receiver :: Freedom Ordnance could be what makes a .357 AR a viable product rather than a one-off custom project. I'm waiting patiently with crossed fingers. But until then, those M92's are well worth suggesting.

for a "sporting weapon" look at CZ. I have a .223 / 5.56 mannlicher style wood and metal rifle that is stunning to look at and puts holes in holes at 200 yards.

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Ok, it's either a Mini 14 ( Ruger Ranch) in .223 or a lever action .357........I have the urge. A better option would be the Ruger Ranch in .357. That would get me over my stroke depression.:rolleyes: Getting a driving privileges back would help also.....they doan tell ya about that up front..... Taint in the old fart handbook

The downside is our local range.......English Pit......it's a big hole in a ex gravel pit..no sun.....it's colder than a witches tit in that hole.

One of each would be a hoot. For the price of a Miroku Winchester, you could get the Mini and a Rossi 92. A red dot on the .223 and a peep sight on the .357, could give you a warm feeling inside when it is cold outside.

This.

Tavor - IWI US

Takes AR magazines, yet shorter & filled with badassery.

I looked at that, but many reviews criticized a long, heavy, and vague trigger. Several reviews also preferred the PS90 which is also about $800 less.

Been looking at the switch barrel CZ's. Those darn Czechs make good guns...

Listening to Higgens can be hazardous to your wallet...I now have two more levers to go along with the .22 and .357/.38 revolvers I've had forever. A bit pricier to shoot would be a .44mag/special to go along with a M629 doncha know ;)

I can probably blame Jeff for my .357 revolvers, and a Model 29 is on the short list.:)

Yep. My Ruger Vaquero owes it's purchase to Jeff.

A new definition of being "Higgins'ed":D

I noticed my ammo stash drawer was nearly immobile......humm...moved the .22lr to another drawer. I didn't do an accurate count but it is about 1800 rnds, maybe 2000....either way, it's more than I can use.

Time to switch to 5.56mm and a spoon to use it, me thinks.....what a plan.:rolleyes:
The local spoon store (within walking distance) has a Ruger Ranch. I was lookin' fer sumthin' to do tomorrow.:D

My pleasure gentlemen, my pleasure. SmileWavy

That's an awfully thin supply. :p

Or were you saying that you had 2000 rounds of just .22LR? SmileWavy

When I was in the infantry Nam 69, I had am M-16(.223). I watched it bounce off alot of jungle.. It didn't inspire confidence in a fire fight

We have a black carbine (AR) and a tricked out Mini 14. My son prefers the AR and I will take the Mini all day long. Food for those is not cheap and along with .22lr the first to clear the shelves when someone gets a wild hair. A 9MM AR setup sounds awesome, would prefer a .40 as that ammo seems to always be available.

JP - you don't have near enough .22lr. It comes in 550 round boxes man!

Sounds like an aftermarket drop-in trigger would be a great business opportunity!

I hear the Tavor also damages the brass as it's ejected- making relaoding difficult at best.

Pity, the gun seems like a great idea!

Your best safety is your eyes, ears, knowledge, and strategy.

I think the issue is a problem inherent in the design of the bullpup configuration.

Standard AR platform chambered in 9mm, takes Uzi mags. Shorter 10 rd mags are available but expensive.

Crappy quick pic..



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You can find an AR style rifle in .308 (AR-10) for around $1K. It won't be a name brand.

You might consider a bit more money and buy a FN-FAL. And maybe a bit more money and buy an M1A (semi-auto M14).

thanks. that's what i wanted to know.

There is always GA Precision.

I remember way back when the HK91's were first introduced, they were accused of damaging brass due to their lengthwise striated chambers. They did this to reduce friction on extraction. The brass sure looked like hell, but it turned out it was entirely reloadable.

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I went the M1A route with the wood stocked "Scout-Squad" version. I absolutely love that rifle. I have found, however, that it is a brass destroying beast. I had no idea before I bought it. The brass looks great as it gets shot - certainly far better than what the HK91 spits out - but looks can be very deceiving.

Due to the nature of how this rifle cycles, it stretches brass considerably upon firing and ejecting. We consider "normal" stretching for centerfire rifle brass to occur at a rate that requires trimming the brass about every 8 to 12 reloads. "Hotter" (higher pressure) rounds can drop that to 2-3 reloads per trim. Older style, extremely tapered cases (.300 and .375 H&H), although operating at lower pressures, will need to be trimmed every 2-3 reloads as well. Really modern, steep shouldered brass (.22 and 6mm PPC's, etc.) never get trimmed, even operating at higher pressures. I's kind of a function of case shape and pressure - more taper and/or more pressure, more brass flow and more trimming.

Well, the .308 is a "modern" (relatively straight, non-tapered) bottle necked case, operating at moderate pressure. It lives forever in bolt guns. I now have a several 50 round "lots" (MTM plastic boxes full) that I just reloaded - and trimmed - for the third time. It looks like a 1:1 ratio. We throw out centerfire brass after its third trimming; too much brass has flowed forward, and we are looking at incipient head separation just in front of the solid head area of the case. So, wow - three loads per case, then crunch 'em and toss 'em. Ouch. Kinda spendy... I have black powder .45-70 and .45-100 cases into their second hundred loadings...

Oh well, that's all only pertinent if you reload. How are the AR's on brass? Do they chew through it like that, or are they better?

Oh, and one final note: Don't let the tales of .308 "recoil" put you off. Yes, in a light hunting rifle, its cumulative affect will take its toll. But that's not what we are talking about here; we are talking 10 pound gas operated semi-autos. I would honestly categorize the recoil of my M1A as "virtually unnoticeable". And that's not some macho man tough guy blather - I hate recoil as much as the next guy. Yes, I bang away with the big thumpers (.375's, .458's, etc.), but I fully understand the affects that has had on me, try to minimize my time with them, and actually have to work my way back up to them when they have sat idle for awhile. A ten pound gas operated .308 ain't even close to the same league - if you can shoot a light little .22 all day long, or a light little .223 carbine all day long, you will have no trouble mastering an M1A or similar full size rifle.

I agree with Jeff, my M1A doesn't kick that bad at all.

It depends if the trigger group linkage is a push or pull type.

I grew up with a 760 Carbine in 30-06 with a 4x scope. It is light and great for in the woods and I never thought the recoil was that bad even after spending a day at a range with it. I would think a 7.62x63 would kick more than the 7.62x51, especially in something as heavy as an M14/M1A.

A Mini-14 and M1A are on my list as well as a Garand. Our son likes the AR platform.

For the range only 7.62x39 would be fine I would think as well. The recoil on those are very mild.

Ammo prices keep going up, as we all have seen in the last decade.
That is why I have stayed with the 5.56 chambered Ranch Rifles.
It would be nice to have something like a .308 of .338 but then I would not be going to the
range as much because of the costs.

I always take the 10/22 along for the ride because even tho 22LR prices have gone up, they are still below .10 per round.

I shoot a lot of 22LR when I first get to the range. 50 & 100 yards. It gets rid of the "shooting Jones" and then I shoot .223/5.56.

I like he Mini's. Reliable and a simple Garand rotating bolt design.
Detachable mags, semi-auto and they just don't look scary to some people like the
AR Black Sporting Rifles.

If you are on a budget, like I am, then stay with the affordable .223.

My wonderful wife, who I do not deserve, surprised me last night with a PS90. She's on a roll, last Christmas it was a Sig P226.:). I can't wait to hit the range with this thing.

That PS90 looks crazy

What makes it special?

Awesome....interested in hearing the range report

Compact and balanced between your trigger hand and the shoulder. Low recoil and ambidextrous. The energy is about the same as a 22WSM.

That is awesome. Not much changed in weapons tech over the last 100 years. The PS90 definitely is different from the usual layouts! I love the way they engineered the magazines.

G

Take a look at the Mini 30 if you like the Mini 14

After an afternoon and evening at my in-laws' in central KS shooting, I officially love the PS90. I put a Bushnell TRS-25 mini red dot on the rail and after getting it sighted in, the thing is dead on at 50 yards. Zero recoil and almost as quiet as a .22, which was a surprise. It is very ergonomic and comfortable to shoot, everyone that shot it (including my 11 year old) genuinely liked shooting it. Very highly recommended!

Great Matt, I am glad you like it. I have been very pleased with mine.

Bill

Mini-14? You can shoot the barrel out on the "old but not original" style in about 3000 rounds. Series 180- was the first, with wood hand guards. Newest (3rd gen) has the thicker barrel ...

762x51? Look at the FN-FAL . Not teh most accurate, but super reliable, and nicer than an AK. There is a guy in Utah producing 22lr conversion kits now, for "cheap" practice...