Considering a .223/5.56 AR Alternative - Thoughts?
 

I'm considering purchasing another "modern sporting rifle" (whatever that means) to diversify beyond 2.23/5.56. I was looking at the AR style 7.62x39 variants, but have seen some feedback indicating the superiority of .300 Blackout or .308 in an AR style rifle. Any suggestions as to the pros/cons of these different calibers and some reasonably priced ($1000-ish) options of choice? Application would be fun target shooting and killing zombies (of course).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1447990134.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1447990149.jpg




i know nothing about this company. just looks interesting. and i want someone to buy one and tell me about it.

Go 308 .223 never has impressed me and I have a few of them :confused:

Armalite AR-10 and several others

Armalite

Palmetto State Armory had their PA10 for $899 when I was on their site yesterday.

I have a stamped Norinco MAK 90 that has never failed me. Not a particularly accurate gun, but quite adept at spraying lead at zombies.

.300 Whisper. I like it that only the barrel has to be changed out.

Run silent, run deep.

I make this thread, and then I priced the ammo.....damn! .300 Blackout is pretty close to $1/round even buying in quantity. Maybe another .223 rifle is a good idea.....

Why not an AK variant? Fun to shoot, I love the sound compared to a AR.

.223/5.56 is not the same round it was even a decade ago.
Modern, heavy OTM rounds are seriously accurate and can do significant damage.

Ps90.....

I wouldn't even mess around with the ar10. I would get the SCAR IF I was to get into 308. But then again I already have more ARs then arms. The question is do you want to invest in another caliber, let alone another "battle rifle". Are you looking for something to hunt, toy, back county predator protection?


If you're looking for another cool toy. Importers have a current stock of East German DDR ak47 parts kits... "I think Century has a few assembled ones as well".

It's hard to beat the ammo pricing on 7.62x39. I like 5.56 because my wife and kids like to shoot it, but AK variants are pretty fun to shoot. :)

.308 is a great round. There's a reason why it is heavily used by the military, hunters and long range marksmen. But it is expensive and the recoil is not insignificant when compared to .223. What do you want the rifle for? I loved my experience with Ruger's Gunsite Scout, and would recommend looking at one. .308 is too expensive to shoot boxes of, so the bolt action won't slow you down, and the stock design/recoil pad really makes shooting pleasant.

If you want another semi auto platform that allows inexpensive shooting, I'd look into a pistol caliber carbine. If you want something to suppress, I'd consider the 300 Blackout. If you want something more powerful, I think I'd look at an M-1 Garand, or a quality bolt action with good optics.

Just my 2 cents, it will be your firearm, you need to like it, and there's no accounting for taste, so get what you want.

Short of the apocalypse, this is just a fun toy for me. I don't hunt so that's not a consideration. If I'm headed to the range or my in-laws' place in the country I don't want to be spending $1/round.

I'll take a look at the other suggestions. I like the 7.62x39 but haven't liked the AK-47s that I have looked at, they typically feel very cheaply made. I do like the availability of the round, I still remember when .223 was hard to find but 7.62x39 was still everywhere.

EDIT: I had forgotten about the PS90 but there aren't a lot of ammo options. I have always liked the SCAR but I really don't want to pay $2500+.

I just picked up a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Gen 2 . 9 mm folding carbine that uses Glock 17 mags.

Absolutely love it. It is my favorite new range toy.

Allows me to shoot a carbine sized rifle at steel targets. .223 not allowed on steel at my range.

Hopefully my next purchase.
SWORD International » MK-17 Mod 0 Tyrant 22 Carbine

.308 is not suited for goofing around at the range. Serious recoil and expensive ammo. 223 is great for that and 7.62 would be ok as well. as you noted most trailer park assault rifles (AK variants) feel like soup cans riveted together around a piece of pipe. not, IMO, satisfying to handle or shoot.

7.62 what? 39? Most interchange 7.62 w/ 308 from the 'old' NATA designation. 308 and 7.62x51 work the same for my. YMMV

The most accurate AK description I have ever heard. :D

sorry, should have been clear. 39.

If you are just going to the range, how about an M1A or M1 Garand. .308 or 30-06. Fun to shoot and historic. Well the M1A isn't full auto like the M14 but you get the point.

I see the point on price but how much are you shooting at the range?

HK94 in 9mm MP5 9mm by Gewehr Werks, HK parts, HK94, not mke : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com
Uzi gangster pistol and H&K Turkish knockoffs in 9mm: Miscellaneous (HK, UZI, MAC Type)
Walther is only selling new in .22LR (good luck finding that): HK MP5 A5 - Walther Arms

Steyr in .223: Steyr Firearms for Sale

I have both a PS90 (and the associated Five-Seven) and a SCAR 17S. The positive thing about the PS90 is the recoil is light so my kids when closely supervised can shoot it. The ammo can be found most places now as well. Don't forget the 50 round mags either, that makes it nice.

The SCAR is just bad a$$, but like you said, $$$$.

Bill

I think you should take a long look at pistol caliber carbines. If you've got a handgun, you can probably find a carbine that takes the magazines the handgun uses, as well as using the same ammo. There are some interesting options out there, but do your research. If you're a revolver guy (you know, one of the good guys) there are good lever action options.

I'm starting to lean either this way or towards the PS90 as Bill suggested. Both give me something different than my AR, but still would be fun at the range. The FN 5.7x28 ammo isn't super expensive either.

I have a Rock River AR chambered in 9mm and it is a hoot...plus I love the fact when I head to the range that my Glock shoots the same ammo. From a practical standpoint if the world melts down and I have to travel light as possible.... 1 ammo 2 great guns..

32 round mags is also cool and as long as I shoot quality brass ammo it has been dead reliable.

If Miata is the answer for car related questions, VEPR 12 is the answer for zombie killin'

Long gun chambered in a handgun round is a brilliant idea, BTW

PTR Rifles
 

I have one of these chambered for the 7.62 x 39 round. It takes the standard AK style mags so there are lots available at low prices. This rifle is a clone of the HK91, uses a roller delayed blowback type action. Recoil is tolerable, more so than the same gun in .308. I also had one of the Spanish made guns in 7.62x51 but sold it after shooting the the one in 7.62x39. This rifle gives you the advantage of a .30 caliber bullet weighing around 125 grains vs 55 or 62 gains in the 5.56. Also, the sights are like the HK91 sights, a rear drum that has 4 different apertures making sight adjustment easy and quick. I also have an AR rifle, but in an emergency would probably grab the PTR91 first. Try it, you will like it!

PS: Before you buy a 7.62 x 51 (308), borrow one and put 100 rds thru it as quickly as you can change mags. I bet you won't want to shoot any more right then! Recoil is "substantial"!

223 77 grain Black Hills will reach out and touch someone..

77 Grain
 

What twist rifling is needed to stabilize a .223 bullet that heavy?

Yeah, .300BLK is definitely not cheap, but it seems to be getting a little better as more players come to the table with factory ammo offerings (and popularity increases).
If you are among the roll-your-own crowd as a lot of .300BLK shooters are, it certainly helps. Right now, you can typically fight decent factory ammo for around $0.60/rd, and even down towards $.040/rd if you are willing to consider reloads.

Still, it is hard to beat if you are looking for an alternative to 5.56 and are already invested in the AR platform. You could simply build/buy a dedicated .300BLK upper, and use your existing lower, bolt, and mags.
Or, a compete .300BLK AR set-up wouldn't be too expensive to put together.

The round isn't nearly as sensitive to velocity loss (compared to .223/5.56) when going with shorter barrel lengths either, so it is perfect for SBR-ing (or even a "pistol" AR build).
Also, once you hear/shoot one suppressed with subsonic ammo, you may be inclined to call your nearest class III FFL to order a can. If you do pick up a decent .30cal can, you would be able to use it on the 5.56 stuff (and .308 bolt guns) too.

SmileWavy

1:7 does the trick, and is pretty ubiquitous in the AR (barrel) world. Black Hills is the gold standard for the 77gr OTM SMK stuff (MK262), but there are a couple alternatives that are right up there, for much cheaper. The two that come to mind are CBC 5.56 77gr OTM, and IMI 5.56 77gr OTM. The most accurate stuff I've found so far is Hornady TAP T2 5.56 75gr, but it is unobtanium, and not cheap when you can find it. ;)

Tell me about this please!

My list of rifles other than AR Poodle shooter runs M1A for targets that are 700m to 400m out that need to be rung,

M1 Garand when I need to stay under 300m and I need to hear BANG! X 8 + PING for the win!

That and a Marlin Camp 45 carbine that takes 1911 magazines, figure it as an accessory for a 1911 that makes 45 acp run out the barrel slower than your 1911 with a rainbow trajectory that if you watch you might see it run down range to 100 yards

I would stay with .223 as you probably have decided by now. Of course then there is little excuse to get a second gun with the same caliber.

G

Oh no, there's always an excuse!:D

I am trying to find something that offers different features though. Hence my interest in the "bullpup" style rifles like the PS90. At $1200 it's a little pricey compared to the AR, but I like the combination of compact form factor along with the capability of a small rifle. It doesn't offer 300 yard range, but I don't have anywhere to shoot those distances anyway.

You can also get an upper for the AR that is compatible with the 5.7 ammo. And a 5.7 handgun, and a 9mm upper for the AR that uses the same magazines as your 9mm handgun, and a bolt action rifle in .223, say a Ruger American, or if you're feeling less utitarian a CZ 527, just for the sake of cross compatibility of ammo. As you said lots of justification for filling the interior of a gun safe.;)

After years of weekly trips to the range with a .308, I was looking for reasons to not go because of recoil and noise.

.223 all day long unless you need to kill something that is really pissed off at you for wounding it.

I've got a few different calibers and 9mm is the most fun in a carbine, .223/.556 is a great versatile round, but I've always had more enjoyment with 7.62x54. PSL, Dragunov, Mosin Nagant. Fun times, super cheap (I've got 1200rds stashed away somewhere in the garage).