DIY vs Getting a Shop Involved

[Jrboulder]

So I jumped into Porsche ownership a while back and did all of my own work for years. By the end of the summer I should be transitioning from fixing things that were wrong when I bought it to mostly just dealing with things as they come up. It seems like a lot of people on here who are in this static position do some DIYing and have shops do some work. It also seems like I've heard a lot of stories of people who just show up at shops when they have a problem getting screwed.

How do I start a successful relationship with a shop? I'm capable (tools and skills) of doing just about anything to my car but I'm kind of tired of making a mess and plugging up my garage with a project that stalls because I'm busy for a while.

How do you split up stuff you do yourself vs send out?

Do the good Porsche shops prefer an involved owner?

[Gogar]

Originally Posted by Jrboulder

Do the good Porsche shops prefer an involved owner?

No, absolutely not.

Imagine if you went to a fancy restaurant and walked into the kitchen after your order and made suggestions to the chef and asked a bunch of questions about what he was doing, and then told him a a few stories of some food you cooked at home once.

You -can- be an involved owner and have a great relationship with a shop but you just need to show the right combination of humility and knowledge, weighted towards the humility side. At least at first.

[john walker's workshop]

Just don't bring your own parts.

[911boost]

+1 to what Gogar is saying. I do a lot of the work on my VW, but there are just things I do not have the patience or skill for. My mechanic knows this and has been great to deal with.

I take the 911 somewhere else, and while I will still wench on it some, with all of the computers etc., I am more comfortable having them fix anything major.

[Bill Douglas]

These older cars can sometimes be a bit of a black art to get going really well, and the great thing about a shop is they have seen it all before.

[sammyg2]

[Evans, Marv]

As far as taking it someplace, you pretty much answered that part when you said, "I'm kind of tired of making a mess and plugging up my garage with a project that stalls because I'm busy for a while." So if that reaches the point you're balancing the project against the inconvenience, it's time to take it to have it done. If you make the choice to take it someplace and pay, you should let them do the work without undue involvement. You can start out checking places out online. Even a shop with a good reputation falls short some times. It just happens.

[rfloz]

Originally Posted by Jrboulder

Do the good Porsche shops prefer an involved owner?

Originally Posted by Gogar

No, absolutely not.

Imagine if you went to a fancy restaurant and walked into the kitchen after your order and made suggestions to the chef and asked a bunch of questions about what he was doing, and then told him a a few stories of some food you cooked at home once.

You -can- be an involved owner and have a great relationship with a shop but you just need to show the right combination of humility and knowledge, weighted towards the humility side. At least at first.

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

Just don't bring your own parts.

Heh. I've broken both these unwritten rules a few times.

When I bought my 911, my intention was to make it a competitive auto-cross car that I could also drive on the street. I knew a bit about car prep and set up generally but little about Porsches. So, I had some ideas and lots of questions.

Dave at TRE has been very patient in answering questions and giving me Porsche specific advice. I took the advice to heart and was very happy with how the car came out.

I think Porsche enthusiasts in general want to be involved, not to say micro manage the work on their baby.

As to parts, I have occasionally bought parts I intended to install my self and ran out of time/ambition/skill and I have picked up parts from friends who changed direction and had parts I wanted for a deep discount. I understand almost all shops get a wholesale price on parts and mark them up to retail and need this profit to survive.

Accordingly, I pay the bills as presented and don't whine about the cost.

As a professional myself, I charge a lot for my services and try to answer any and all questions a client may have and, if they so desire, even let them save a bit of money by doing some basic work themselves. Of course the latter must be carefully reviewed and often revised a bit.

To me, am involved client is more likely to appreciate the work they are being asked to pay for.


Edit - Yes, my avatar is a photo of my car at TRE.

[Jrboulder]

After thinking about it some more, I don't think I should get anyone involved. I tried to think about the last time my friends or family had a positive experience at a shop or dealer on something beyond the capabilities of Jiffy Lube or Discount Tire and it was over 2 years ago. Just last month my mom took her Jetta in to the dealer when it was having the pretty common cam timing adjuster problem and the idiots spent $800 on unrelated parts and labor before even hooking it up the the diagnostic software. Google "Jetta P0011" and you'll get 50 threads like "hey my car is doing this" "ok replace the cam adjuster" "thanks my car is fine now". That's on a car they made millions of being worked on by a supposedly factory trained tech with all the factory diagnostic stuff and they couldn't even be bothered to spend their $130 of diagnostic time on 5 minutes of diagnostic work.

Now, my car is 40 years old and they only made 2099 of them. Some parts are hard to find and it has its own additional factory technical information. After cruising through some old forum posts it looks like mechanics have a hard time sourcing stuff if they can't get if from Porsche, WorldPac or a dismantler or getting information if it's not shared with the 911 or 914. If I can't supply parts and factory technical information when the shop can't get parts and doesn't know how to proceed then forget about it.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

Just don't bring your own parts.

+1
If they won't at least listen to your diagnosis they are too arrogant to be trustworthy. I took my 911 in and told the guy it had a clutch hydraulic problem. He said essentially, "Yeah, right." He put a new flywheel, RMS, disc, pressure plate, and release bearing in it. I drove it half a block and the problem was still there. He replaced the clutch master cyl and what do you know - problem gone. After wasting $2200 of my money he graciously only charged me for the part required to actually fix it.
I don't need to waste my time with arrogant mechanics.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

Just don't bring your own parts.

When the turn signal switch on my 356 let the magical smoke out I had to source a replacement for the shop... but then my family has had a 30+ year relationship with them...

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

+1
If they won't at least listen to your diagnosis they are too arrogant to be trustworthy. I took my 911 in and told the guy it had a clutch hydraulic problem. He said essentially, "Yeah, right." He put a new flywheel, RMS, disc, pressure plate, and release bearing in it. I drove it half a block and the problem was still there. He replaced the clutch master cyl and what do you know - problem gone. After wasting $2200 of my money he graciously only charged me for the part required to actually fix it.
I don't need to waste my time with arrogant mechanics.

+1

Buell I had came from the dealership where the owner stated it had an engine knock. techs said nope, it's the clutch basket. 3 grand later; then I bought it and rebuilt the engine...

Bringing your own parts is just bad mojo. If the parts are defective, not quite right, or plain the wrong ones. it wastes everyone's time. Let alone the warranty. I do not know a single mechanics that will warranty a part that you brought to them.

Trick is finding a good mechanic. Keeping your mechanic happy will make you happy as well.
example. I know a boat mechanic that fixes the big fishing boats up in Alaska. makes stupid money. Anyways when you drop off your boat and he'll always ask to move some of the boats around his property. It keeps him happy, and your boat is the first to be fixed.

[ckelly78z]

We have a guy who runs a shop from his home (separate shop building) who is very reasonable on labor, and will only do what you ask to the degree that you want it fixed. He will afro-engineer if you tell him to to save some money., but will also do a fine job on most projects. He is getting up there about 65 years old, so I have to wonder how long he will continue.

I gained respect for him, and vice versa many years ago when we both raced Datsun Zs, and shared knowledge about the cars. He could tell that I wanted to learn, and wasn't just bleeding him for information on how to fix my car. If a stranger walks into his shop and starts asking a bunch of questions, he will show them the door, but if you truly have a give and take converstaion with the guy, you both will stand there for an hour and discuss everything from politics to local news, to cars.

[Dan J]

I encourage my customers, that want to, to work on their cars. I think it helps them understand
the car much better. Also helps them understand what we're doing when we fix it
Some folks have no interest and that's fine too

[biosurfer1]

My issue is with the BYO parts, I understand why mechanics don't like it or warranty it, but that just means they source it from whoever gives them the biggest kickbacks. Reputable shop I took my car to for some work said I needed a new radiator (I did). They said they could source one and install it while they had things apart. Turns out I was overcharged by ~$400. Took literally 30 seconds of Googling to find OEM cheaper. I paid and mentioned they might want to look into alternate parts source....doubt they cared, so they don't get any more business from me.

[porsche4life]

Jackson, if you absolutely need a wrench, let me know. We have a shop we send stuff to in Mesa that is honest, good, and not completely unreasonable. Not sure if they do Aircooled though, I'd have to check on that.

[intakexhaust]

Depends on the sex

[Charles Freeborn]

I'm a hard core DIY'er, but then I do make things for a living, have worked as a mechanic in my past and have a respectable shop full of tools.
That said, what John Walker says, and even more importantly don't bring it to a shop as a basket case.
I draw the line at activities that require special one time (or even a few time) tools. For example that means that If I want internal engine work done I'll take it to the shop as a long block, clean and empty (of oil) and let them break it down. There's lots of data that needs to be collected in the dis-assembly, such as if any bolts are frozen, or loose, and if so why? Re- assembly requires both special tooling, but more importantly experience, to get all the various cases, seals deck heights, etc properly aligned and mated. I want a guy who's done hundreds to do mine...
The same goes for a transmission - out, empty and clean. The only reason to not de-grease is if there is a fluid leak that needs addressing - in that case you can take photos of the offending area. And for Pete's sake never take a filthy CV to a shop. That's just rude.
Suspension work is not that hard if you use a little logic and are able to spot bent or damaged parts, and the few special tools are not that extensive or expensive.. Alignment should be done on a proper rack and by someone who understands Porsche physics. Again, I'm not going to buy a multi thousand dollar rack when I can pay a guy that knows how to use it a few hundred every few years. The string method just seems silly to me.
Interior work involves a few tricks of the trade, but again I can pull the seats and panels and deliver. No need to pay for that.
I like and am good at welding, so I'll do that on panels, etc, but bondo and paint is an art. I've done it many years ago, but having all the right tools (again) and a booth can't be beat.
There you have it. The poor mans diy schedule.

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

My issue is with the BYO parts, I understand why mechanics don't like it or warranty it, but that just means they source it from whoever gives them the biggest kickbacks. Reputable shop I took my car to for some work said I needed a new radiator (I did). They said they could source one and install it while they had things apart. Turns out I was overcharged by ~$400. Took literally 30 seconds of Googling to find OEM cheaper. I paid and mentioned they might want to look into alternate parts source....doubt they cared, so they don't get any more business from me.

" reputable "? not anymore.

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by Dan J

I encourage my customers, that want to, to work on their cars. I think it helps them understand
the car much better. Also helps them understand what we're doing when we fix it
Some folks have no interest and that's fine too

I agree with Dan on this.