Thoughts about 718 Engine Note?
 

Like all of us, when I heard of the new 718 Boxster and Cayman model line, I was cautiously optimistic. Sure, we would prefer that all of our Porsche sports cars have a flat-six, but the turbocharged flat-fours are making some pretty good HP -- 300 in the base Boxster and 350 in the Boxster S (there isn't a ton of info on the 718 Cayman yet). The cars also look great, too! And I'm sure the driving dynamics are everything we'd expect from a contemporary Porsche.

The remaining factor is the sound. Now that I have a proper flat-six Porsche -- a 3.4 Cayman S with a Fabspeed Maxflo exhaust setup -- I am now properly aware of how much a great engine note can add to the driving experience. Last weekend, during an unseasonably warm spell in CT, I took my 987 Cayman through a section of very twisty back road with high rock walls on either side; it was the kind of road where you *could* drive in 3rd at mid-range RPM, but why do that when you could hustle it through at 6000rpm in 2nd? With the windows down, of course. The sound was intoxicating. I've owned various Porsches for 16 years now, and it was probably one of the most memorable drives I've had... and it was mostly due to the sound generated by the combination of that motor and that exhaust setup.

Well, in this video, we finally get to listen to Porsche's new flat-four. And maybe the video doesn't do it justice... but it doesn't sound very good, does it? Inside the cabin, it sounds a *little* bit like a 951, but outside? Lots of farts and burbles. It's possible that the driver isn't wringing the engine out the way we might with a naturally-aspirated flax-six, but then again, with turbos, he doesn't really need to.

One might argue that four-cylinder engines just don't sound very good in general, but the Alfa 4C has an argument to make, and the Subi BRZ/Scion whatever it is sounds pretty nice... plus, I've encountered tuned 951s and 968s that have sounded great.

Anyhow. I don't want to poison the well. Listen for yourself, and let me know what you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2iVVt1kG2w

Not a fan, but I wouldn't let the sound stop me from buying one.

I had a 2000 S 3.2 with straight 3-1 tube headers and glass packs. It was flashed and revved to... 7900 I think? I would sometimes take the long way home from work late at night just to go through the PCH tunnel under LAX. It sounded like a damn cup car. Of course, stock, it was damn quiet.

I think the aftermarket will take care of making the 718 sounding proper.

And that launch control.... yes, please.

The engine note is OK on acceleration, but I don't care for the popping on overrun. I'm not a big fan of turbo fours. As the old saying goes, 'There's no replacement for displacement'. Unfortunately, small forced-induction motors are the future for mass-market performance cars.

That new Boxter is one fine looking automobile though...

Three words that best describe the Internet forum world! :D

Nice burble...Did you notice how the logo on the wheels looks like rotating swastikas?

Total fail IMHO. Tuners have their TIGs at the ready, taking orders now.

The segment around 1:55ish sounds exceptionally horrible

Oh HE11 yeah!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1454704983.jpg

Hopefully in a few years I will be looking for a sports car for my retirement years.

Also hopefully the depreciation in Boxsters will follow existing trends.

I know we are all in love with the flat six... and us Mericans love our V8's... and who doesn't love the sound of a V12...

But I have always has a soft spot for 4 bangers, maybe because I used to go to the superbike races at Riverside... maybe because my first car was a 4.

Sounds good to me.

Enjoy it while you can boys. If you're under 50, you just might live long enough so that fuel driven cars are a novelty.

Needs more power. Turbo Subaru/Mitsu with mild upgrades make that kind of power.

Since when has raw power been the selling point of a Porsche?

Great but when I watch videos like that I can't help but think about all the "fancy schmancy" gadgets just sitting there waiting to fail.
The Germans can't even make reliable electric windows. :confused:

So it now has a turbo charged 4. Great for emissions and efficiency but I absolutely guarantee you it will have reliability issues.

Reminds me of a friend's bachelor party when I was young.

We were in a kitchen. The dancer was getting pretty exotic, and in a drunken stupor, I grabbed a carrot, stuck it through my pants, and got on the floor.

Interestingly, she mounted it, and ground away.
To this day, I can remember the swaying hips, the breast, and the flying hair and naked skin...

It was like we were doing it-
Yet no feeling....

Why? It was only a carrot. That's why.

(forrest gump voice) ...And that is all I have to say about that (former 951 owner).

I'm not sure what point you are trying to convey......yet I strangely don't care.:cool:

You guys are putting way too much thought into this. A very good clue is called a WRX, or a host of other Subarus that have a turbocharged flat-four. They sound ok when stock, and honestly not too much better with an exhaust. I had a Legacy GT that was both stock and with some exhaust mods, I never really felt like it sounded good. No amount of aftermarket will make a turbocharged flat four sound like a flat six. And whoever mentioned a 951 sounding good.........just no. I've had two with multiple configurations of exhaust, the only good sounding 951 was with a stock exhaust so you really couldn't hear all that much. A 951 with a 3" turbo back exhaust will turn the heads of Honda fart can fanatics and not much else.

The message from Porsche is clear - if you want a flat six we have a 911 to sell you. It further differentiates the flagship model, without totally diluting the entry level.

That's a good point -- the 718s will provide a great driving experience, but one would have to buy a 911 to get the real "Porsche experience," at least the closest thing that the purist can get in the modern line.

I dunno. I love turbocharged cars, but once you get a taste of the Porsche flat-six -- especially once it's uncorked by upgrading the exhaust system (if you can't tell, I was profoundly underwhelmed by the stock setup) -- it's tough to think of driving a performance car without a great engine sound.

Nice looking, probably has great driving dynamics, but I agree that the popping on overrun would get old fast. I was already tired of it at the end of a two minute video.

I've posted on here before that anyone who finds a 986/987 or 996/997 to be boring needs to drive one with a performance exhaust. Porsche gave them entirely too much muffler from the factory, a good exhaust adds so much to the experience overall. I don't pretend to understand exactly what gives different engine types their distinct sound, only that each type has it. You will never be able to replicate the raspy flat-six howl with a flat-four, just like an inline-4 will never sound like a V-8. There are few engines that can match a flat-six at full song.

It probably won't be a big deal to the average 718 buyer, most of which will probably be more concerned about styling or luxury features. But the loss of the NA flat-six is a big deal to me, and the 718 is far less appealing because of it.

The artificial engine noise that they pump into the cockpit will make it sound just fine from the inside .

That was the point where I knew the M5 had officially lost its way. I don't think Porsche is there.......yet.

It just doesn't sound quite....right.

I'll reserve final judgement until I get to hear one in person. It does look fun, though...

It's not, but usually Porsche is competing with more expensive performance cars.

I guess they lowered the bar.

Everyone makes a turbo 4 with this much power.
Subaru, Mitsu, Ford, VW.......

They should have focused on weight reduction. This thing is heavier then the old boxster.

A stock 930 exhaust pops and burbles on the overrun and nobody seems to complain about that...

I'm more interested in how a car drives than a lot of you guys. With 350 hp, and the flat torque curve that you'll get from turbocharging, that chassis will finally have enough power to match its fine handling. No complaints from me.

A four cylinder can sound just fine, albeit different than a six. Porsche has a very long history with four cylinder cars and having heard them all, count me as a fan.

How it sounds, whether it has the "right stance" or whatever is secondary to how it drives and I doubt it would disappoint anybody with an open mind.

Don't blame Porsche for going down this road, just kill the politicians that foist the draconian new rules down their throat.

JR

Different strokes I guess, I find the sound of an engine to be a major part of the driving experience. Short of a racetrack you can't really utilize all of your 350 HP, but a silky smooth, responsive, and sonorous engine can be enjoyed at any time. I think most modern street cars have dramatically exceeded real world usable HP. I'd much rather have an involving driving experience than power bragging rights.

It is a shame Porsche doesn't doesn't have more experience with turbos ;)

As far as power... the Porsche aftermaket is huge... I would be very surprised if the tuners are not even already planing mods.

***cough {RUF} cough***

The 911 is unique because of the combination of high frequency whirr from the cooling fan and the bass of the combustion events. GT3 or other stinger style exhausts seem to have a strange, sometimes grating noise that I can only describe as sounding like a trumpet. They get some sort of interference that changes the pitch or the color of the sound.

With equal exhaust systems it's all about firing order. Inline and flat 4's have the same crankshaft usually so they sound basically the same if they both have 4-2-1 or 4-1 exhaust. A 6 has evenly spaced combustion events so if you have one running at 2/3 the rpm of a 4 they can sound similar.

There is a four cylinder that sounds like a V8 (and I'm not talking flat plane crank V8 because they sound just like a four cylinder). The modern Yamaha R1 with the uneven firing order sounds like a normal cross plane V8.

I think you miss my points. I couldn't give two ****s about bragging rights. And, I'm not saying 300 hp isn't enough, let alone 350. What I am saying is that I think people will find these engines to be pretty entertaining. Turbocharged engines usually make a lot of torque in the midrange and Porsche's recent expertise has made the turbos completely transparent. I recently sold a Boxster S that made over 300 hp. No complaints about the top end, but there was a fair bit of wait between normal cruising rpm's and the real power band, when I put my foot in it. Yes, I could always downshift two or three gears but sometimes its nice just to plant your foot and go. Drive a modern turbo Porsche and see what I mean.

The other thing is that I think the average enthusiast has gotten to the point where its more important to them how their car looks or sounds, or what they look like in it, than how it drives. Look at the "right stance" thread in the 911 forum for examples. Or look at how many people ask which looks better on their 911, a ducktail or one of the various spoilers that came after it. You never hear "which one works better?" The guys that throw on an aftermarket muffler ought to spend some time, up close and personal, with a '65-'67 911, before they decide their muffler unleashed more of the "911 sound."

My .02, but I'm an older fart than some of you...

JR

I just want to point out that the topic of this thread IS about the sound.

The turbo 4 in the video link really doesn't do much for me in terms of how it sounds.

The scream of an air cooled flat blade 911 fan is just so addictive, I come back to it every time. You hear that much more than the exhaust, unless you're running some sort of exhaust that will rob power for the sake of sound, or unless you're running some super high compression, in which case you're a crazy loon who has to buy race fuel.

All this reminiscing and comparing to an air cooled flat six is pretty much apples and oranges isn't it?

How does the exhaust note of a 991 compare to a air cooled flat six?

Might as well be lamenting that the current crop of American V8's don't sound anything like the muscle cars of the 1960's.

Actually the 1960s muscle cars were not as potent as the early 1970s models, and the sound got better and better through the 1980s as a result of aftermarket tuning.

I drove the Cayman S this morning, and the exhuast in Sport mode is absolutely delicious. But the whole sound of my 3.2 911 from 1984 still beats it for me in terms of excitement and passion. The air cooled 911s are really that good, even by today's standards. I don't find that reminiscing so much as it is observation. The Cayman is probably more efficient, covering ground faster and braking harder. They are both equally an onslaught on your senses, just in different ways.

Well, given we're all hearing it through some ****ty computer monitor speakers, I don't think anybody can make an informed judgement.

I say, wait until you hear a real one. Might be better than you think.

95% of the people that ***** about the sound of a current F1 car are listening to it on their TV. Not the same, by a long shot. They sure do complain, though...

:rolleyes:

JR

Who's computer speakers are you callin' ****ty?

Mine, for a start...

How do you know I'm not listening to it on my 5.1 cell phone speakers? :D

Its hard to be mad a 4 cylinder, esp when we know Offenhauser produced 1000 hp from them without computer gizmos .
yes it was a straight inline four, bit still....
It was not to be scorned.

My flat six Cayman S pops on overrun too so if you don't like it on the 718 you wouldn't like it on the six either. I like the sound of the new flat four. I'd like the added torque without much lag that modern turbo fours have too. If the used market is strong for sixes because of the new four, I'd gladly trade in.

This will be the new 912 / 911 thing...............

I used to have a 996TT, I know exactly how Porsche can make a turbo engine seamless. I have no doubt that the 718 will be a great driving car, I just doubt it will sound as good doing it. To me that's a big deal, but everybody has their own priorities. Not that Porsche cares about me anyway, I don't think I've owned a Porsche that was newer than 5 years old at the time of my ownership.

Yeah, I think you nailed it here: Porsche has no intention of making the 718 cars NOT great, but they have been struggling for nearly 10 years now with the problem of "how do we make the Cayman great while still making sure that the 911 is special?" At first, it was by limiting the Cayman's power, but those HP totals crept up and even Porsche couldn't resist the urge to build the GT4.

I bet they had a meeting and said something like "okay, we pretty much HAVE to keep putting big engines in the Cayman S and Boxster S; how do we ensure that those customers will still kinda feel 'less than' those who bought a 911? What makes the 911 truly special?"

Well, what differentiated the 911 from the 928 and 944 Turbo back in the late 80s, when both of the front-engined cars were sorta kicking ass in car magazine group tests?

That sweet, sweet flat six engine.

Again, no doubt that the 718s will be fantastic cars. Alls I'm sayin is that the engine note is nowhere near as wonderful as the flat-six. It's not that it pops and burbles -- that's cool, and my Cayman S does that on overrun as well. That's not the issue -- the issue is that my Cayman S screams like a flat-six should and THEN pops and burbles on overrun; it doesn't fart a little bit and then pop and burble a la the car in the video.

You should spend some time in a 991 turbo. They've made a bunch of progress since yours was built.

JR

Does anyone want to discuss reliability and maintenance of a turbo 4 versus a non turbo boxer 6 cylinder of similar HP?


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