He did it was a very good post! I appreciate that most of you do allow for flexibility and much of what you guys point out is probably accurate about a percentage of the population. I think where we may disagree (or perhaps not) is the percentage of the losers. By no means am I saying millennials are a great generation, or a poor generation, I just get frustrated when people talk as if the majority of youth are X. X being lazy, selfish, good for nothing, entitled etc etc. Claiming that the majority of youth aren't outside enough, or don't understand life without tech, or sufferage like the great depression, I agree with. But when it's big generalizations about character and future predicitons, I get frustrated because it's so speculative, but on the other hand, what isn't when your talking about the future.

That erosion is evident, but cultural erosion is like environmental erosion, it isn't selective about the age of the rocks.

Totally agree. There is a percentage of millennials that are bums. That percentage, I'm not exactly sure, but I feel that claims that it is some how much larger then previous generations, are as I said before, conjecture.

Lots of great posts that outline the problems with and mentalities of, the "bum percentage" -- that are spot on. It's the percentage I usually disagree with. Although anecdotal, we often argue that history repeats itself, and as such, more than likely so does the "bum percentage".

Lazy workers are necessary for long-term sustainability in insect societies:

Lazy workers are necessary for long-term sustainability in insect societies : Scientific Reports

JD

You keep getting your back up about millenials

I thought the question QA how did me screw them up?

Why not focus on the question instead of confusing the issue?

Thats fair. A large chunk of the debate started from a video that apparently depicted how stupid millennials are and how the future looks bleak, but I can get it back on topic.

The future looks bleak thanks to Boomers. I think we can all agree on that.

gaw daym Hippies.

JD
Read Cocker's post and it proves just about everything I posted. Nothing but excuses and the stupid idea that things were free for people that came before him... Many who didn't even have indoor plumbing, television, etc...who paid for their own college (couldn't even get a school loan back then...or credit whatsoever). Worked in the fields doing work "that Americans will not do" today for far less than minimum wage. Fast food jobs paid less than minimum wage as well. Most folks could not afford to buy a house on one income as he claims...or even two. Served in the military so that their children would not have to live under communism/socialism (and now the young punks think socialism is cool). Had to pay cash for everything (no credit cards). No WIC, Earned Income Tax Credits, Section 8 housing etc. if you wanted to eat...you got a job. Until you saved up for a car, you walked. Nothing was free...and you expected nothing until you worked a decade or so. No participation trophies where I grew up.

Don't be so defensive, yes, it's Boomers who screwed up the Millenials and wanted everyone to feel special just for showing up in their own little anti-meritocracy.

There is more dysfunction now and it will only get worse in each successive generation. Not fully formed, my thesis is that to bring out the best in human nature, both work and struggle are required. Through no one's fault, technology alone will diminish the quality of the human spirit. But the Boomers helicopter parenting and diminution of competition is additive and accelerates the decline.

FWIW, I remember 25 years ago going on a ski trip and I was the only one out of 6 in the cabin who could start a fire. I got there late and found 3 "perfectly" arranged 5" thick logs charred on the grate and all the starter paper gone.






I think many won't figure out and will only annoy others along the way. Even if they do, they won't have the tools to change and figure out how to become competitive much in the way the cycle of poverty is propagated: Poor or no role models makes breaking out of a cycle very difficult.

Pretty much the world I grew up in. Some of the kids I grew up with wound up dead or in jail at a young age. My parents made sure I got put in different classes than those kids, with stricter teachers.

There was a lot wrong with the Hippy movement and the counter culture, but there was something right about the sniffing of BS in a lot of what America was saying and doing. For many, it became an excuse for a long drug and drinking party. For others, it was just a stepping stone.

The first kids who spent their lives living in mom's basement were teenagers in the 70s. But remember that there was a great need for a lot of labor before that, and I saw all the factories in my home town closing up by the early 80s. I'm not sure how people of average or below average intelligence were supposed to cope with that. But that was a big part of the change.

''Your Majesty is like a stream of Bat Piss." ;)

Extremely well put!

Not all, but many. And surveying as I do from the vantage point of age 52 I can't help but think it's a rapidly growing problem among more and more (but not all JD) youth.

Wow - leave it to the forum I go to for fun and car tech talk to summarize what owning your own company is like better than just about anything else I've ever read in any professional journal or business school text book.

It's terrifying at times. I wonder if the little Punk has ever had to make a payroll, or carry core employees while losing money?

Rest assured JD - if someone was always bagging on my generation I have to admit I'd be defensive too. Especially since you seem like you have a good head on your shoulders and have worked to improve yourself.

Unfortunately you spend time on a forum with mostly men (old farts?) who are mostly a couple of decades older than you. I'd encourage you to take the good that you read and reject the rest; the crap the Boomers (and even those before us) messed up - there's certainly plenty.

You are certainly able to make your points effectively, and it's been a nice discussion. Just do me a couple of favors - get your generation to buy more houses... and watch the name calling! And I'll try to do the same!

...and watch the movie stand by me:)

+ 2.35!!! ....which was the hourly wage I worked for back in '76 as Fint and I have discussed before here. Growing up back then was no free anything....but frankly, I had it easy....compared to my parents' generation, and grand-parents'...far back as you can go. The % of over/under-achievers may have subtle generational variations, but this debate has been going in for thousands of years....:)

Yes. I find all this whining about how rotten this or that generation kind of funny. I imagine you guys as Stadler and Waldorf from the Muppets, sitting around grousing about something you will never do anything about.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1463744003.jpg

Back to " how did we cause all of this"

I have some ideas:

1) We never got defensive. There was no reason to. We always new we weren't good enough.
Instead as kids we just figured out how to do better

2)As adults we became over-achievers

3) As parents our kids were never going to have it as rough as us. Our kids would be better than everyone else's (Real or perceive, or more frequently, contrived).

What caused all of this in us?

1) The depression was a huge influence on our parents, and that influenced us (Thats why we hung on to so much crap and eventually spawned a storage locker industry).

2) To our parents, any job was a good job. We were raised to have a strong work ethic in order to get and retain any job. This training started at a young age painting fences and such. Kids were expected to work, and the work they produced was never good enough. We complained perhaps, but we worked harder and tried to do better.

3) Colour television came along during our lifetime, and with it much different programming than in the very early days of TV. but even the back and white programming had begun seeing the same messages and But we wanted to do better.

4) We cringe when we say the way 30 somethings raise kids today (little johnny)

likely the same way our parents cringed when they saw how we raised ours (such wasteful bunch. That toy can be fixed, don't throw it away and buy a new one).

I think this issue is huge!

Prior to this, people compared themselves to their neighbours, but now they compared themselves to other fictitious people on TV with perfect lives, and in addition I blame Walt Disney.

Based on that, the dreams that our mothers had for us enabled us to literally shoot for the moon (After all, we saw it on TV).

Dad didn't play much of a role in dreams. Dads were burned out from work, constantly stressed about money, and kids were to be seen but not heard.

The difference with the moms and dads of our kids is that while there are a lot of positive things like dads taking a bigger role in the lives of kids, both parents (in whatever % you want to assign to this) wanted their kids to have an easier time of it than they had, and often, unlike our parents, had the financial means to provide it.

In our day growing up to be whatever you wanted to be meant "work hard for what you want"

What I have seen predominantly in our peers (the suburban parents whom I never had a lot in common with) is that:

1)Growing up to be whatever you wanted meant "You can be whatever you want, (you just have to have hope, and it will happen)."

2) Competition among parents was strong (My kid walked at 1 yr. Oh ya, my kid walked at 12 months!

3) If the kids wasn't a stand out star, if they weren't recognized as special, then some other attribute had to be found to make them stand out. As an example, when new allergies were just developing, peanut allergy was discovered, and kids could die form that. Schools banned peanut butter because to some kids just breathing in the smell could cause a reaction. Other parents who felt that their kids was not as special as the peanut kid, found that their kid had a seafood allergy, and requested that although not many kids brought shell fish to school, tuna should be banned because it comes from the sea! Then the kid with a reaction to egg gets dragged in to the principles office eby his or her parents and next thing you know, the school is also sending home a letter banning egg salad sandwiches (even though not airborne, the kid could eat someone else's sandwich)

Jesus! The kid is ten, just teach the damned kid to keep their hand off of other people's food!!

(But that isnt really what that letter was all about now was it? Keeping the kid safe was just a smoke screen to getting on the "somehow special" list)


...and on it goes

As for university, it was anew thing for our generation (for many families it was a big deal to have the first kid to go to university)
There were those jobs, but you could get there other ways, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer (which lead to another issue)

Parent to kid:
You have to go to university or you won't get a job

Kid to parent:
but I want to be a plumber

Parent to kid:
Plumbers don't make any money

Kid to parent:
ok

Parent to anyone they meet:
My Son the doctor, my daughter the lawyer.Aren't they special!

That person they meet:
But the law field is overcrowded and your daughter is out of work

Parent:
Yes, THEY should do something about that. She's worked hard and deserves a job

(ME to all of you: no offence meant if your kid is a doctor or Lawyer );)

You know the answer to that.

To me, the most terrifying part of owning a business is that the government wants to criminalize parts of normal life challenges. They think that they can create a giant prophylactic bubble around the world and create a fantasy dreamland free of risk, pain, and uncertainty. Activists push around government on the local, and state levels. We have an activist in the White House. They rather capriciously come up with draconian laws to require business owners to regularly take it up the ass because THEY don't want to actually do the work to create said dreamland. They want us to do it for them while they sit on the couch eating free government cheese.

LOL. I worked full time and two part time jobs when I was getting my engineering degree...plus had a wife and kids to raise (because that was expected of adults back then).

In many places the recession of the '70s was much harsher than the current one as here were really not a lot of these social welfare programs that pay one not to work (and competition for work...so folks could eat...was fierce, even for fast food jobs). There really were no jobs available then (not just jobs that lazy, entitled folks refuse to do today).

When I was 15 and legally able to stop working the fields, sawing wood, etc. for a real job in fast food (much more money as you cannot work the fields off season, after dark, etc)...it paid $1.60 hr and you often worked a lot of hours where you were not paid (cleanup, etc). You also had today for your own uniforms and cleaning out of your check. The employer actually made you dress at work to make sure that you used their cleaning service to ensure you didn't half ass do it yourself of wear a dirty shirt. Other folks that flipped burgers with me were middle age guys with engineering degrees, MBAs, etc...who had families to feed and had become unemployed.

Yes...like some have pointed out...it is the parent's fault to some extent (but also the stupid societal "evolution" that makes each person feel entitled). My own daughter that I love dearly (youngest child) is not too terribly much older than JD or Cocker and although pretty impressive compared to many of her peers...and shows some of the same traits. Contrary to posts like some of the millennials who post here, her opportunities have been exponential to mine at the same age. She is around 30, out of med school for almost 4 years, and is a well respected family practice doctor with no debt and with little or no sacrifice has over $100K in the bank (I think I worked over 5 years before I broke $5K per year). Even so, she is just not "hungry" regarding work, she complains incessantly about her job, long hours, conditions, etc. (all seem fabulous to me). Her university education (outside her specialty) puts her far behind me (even when I graduated High School). Although a genius compared to many peers, she is weak in civics, history, the arts...even in math and science...not to mention current events. She seems lazy and spoiled compared to her parents...although we have always been more frugal and driven than most of our acquaintenances (once I graduated from high school at 17). She constantly takes expensive vacations in exotic locations (but I guess that she can afford them due to her great job) and works as few hours as possible (but many more than her peers). After working four years, she expects similar or better housing, toys, restaurants, etc. than I did after working for 30 years. She is a wonderful daughter... smart, beautiful, athletic, engaging...but, frankly...somewhat a princess. Just like Cocker, but to a lesser extent.

Flintstone did a great job of describing growing up back then

While influenced by modern society his daughter obviously gained some work ethic


For me, while I was messing around with old cars because I grew up as a compulsive do it yourselfer that couldn't throw anything away, my son took his grass cutting money and bought a late model mustang instead

After that he spent his work savings on an engineering degree

My wife and I agree me that whatever we did raising the kids by the time they were 8 or 12 Had better give them good work ethic and decision making skills because after that age we wouldn't have much influence

I think we were right

Now we just stay out of their way as they succeed and find opportunities where they can. Good jobs, careers and out on their own with no debt at relatively young ages

I think it pays for parents to do the hard things sometimes instead of doing whatever it takes to be liked.

That is, to me, the quintessential characteristic of a good parent.

I tried hard to make sure my children knew, when appropriate, not only how much I loved them but how much I expected from them.

A missile without a guidance system is incoming.

Another great quote from you!
Thanks

It's a rare sight, but I have the deepest respect for a parents who is sleep deprived, kid in tow, just trying to pickup some groceries, yet if the situation calls for it, will leave the checkout line and a hours worth of shopping in their cart, and haul a kid straight to the car.

When I have seen that I know they made a hard decision that will pay dividends

Other people with equally unruly kids scour and the nerv of that parent. Meanwhile I secretly applaud them. ( one day I might even buy that shopping cart and deliver it to them if I could)

What kind of business do you own?

Entitled? You tell me.

Accused Thief Says The Stupidest Thing Possible To Arresting Officers
Accused Thief Says The Stupidest Thing Possible To Arresting Officers | The Smoking Gun

After being arrested Friday for stealing items from a jeweler in a Florida mall, Prolancia Aquila Turner, 26, was pissed.

Not at herself, of course, for hiding earrings valued at $12.50 in the waistband of her pants.

Instead, the “crying and angry” Turner, 26, was miffed because, as she told police, “Everyone steals from this store. Why are you picking on me?”

Seen in the adjacent mug shot, Turner was charged with retail theft for pilfering the merchandise from a Claire’s outlet in a Vero Beach mall. She is scheduled for a June 7 court appearance in connection with the misdemeanor count.

Turner’s rap sheet includes two other theft arrests, both in 2015. It is unknown whether she considers those collars equally unjust as her latest bust.

Real estate development. And other things. I'm going to be selling a crap ton of twinkies and gas. I can only imagine how bad that's going to be.

There are laws against dust created by the state's air pollution board. So you rent a water meter from the city, and spray water on the ground. When the water runs into a storm drain, you are fined by the local flood control district. And when the weeds grow in the summer because you just watered them, you are fined by the city code enforcement for weed abatement. But if you get a tractor and disc the weeds, then you just created more dust. The only way not to create dust is to use more water.

That is what I mean by the arbitrary governmental criminalization of every day life.

I think Wayner's treatise/a few ideas is very accurate in describing what many of the Boomers did (over-indulge their spawn), and why they did it (children of Depression era parents; wanting better for their spawn). I get that. I even did some of that.

However I remain convinced there has been a subtle, underhanded, steady move by progressives, dating to the 1930's and the Frankfurt School types, to infiltrate the colleges and universities, and by extension, K-12 by indoctrinating the future teachers at the teaching colleges.

They got to the US too late to much influence the "Greatest Generation" , who were fighting wars and recovering from the Depression in the post war building boom. They came from Germany and Austria, but I don't think they were noticed much back then.

Their influence really began to take hold in the late 50's and 60's, and while I don't want to PARF this up, I mention it as an additional factor (not mentioned by Wayner) but that almost subconsciously influenced the Boomers and got us where we are today.

One easy example can be seen in the Boomers' notion that no kid should be "just a plumber" and the ultimate dismantling of a once robust and effective vocational ed system in this country. Johnny just has to go to college. Show me a Boomer parent that didn't pressure little Johnny to go to college...

However, I can only speak for this tail-end-Boomer - I had no idea about it until recently.

Yep.

In the last 6 months we've been visited by ICE (no fines or penalties), the AQMD (give them another $10K and retrofit our fuel tank for the ten second a month it gets re-filled), the Fire Dept (annual review, never had any issues to bring them out otherwise, the State Department of Environmental Health (to inspect our hazardous waste - dirty engine oil waiting to be properly disposed of), OSHA (no fines, ignored how we go above and beyond for our guys, but add this or that sentence to our IIPP), the county to inspect our Spill Control Plan, the Fire Dept again (we must now get a permit for our diesel tanks, that have been in place and in their records since 1989 but now we have to get a permit for them (and guess what, they cannot be permitted as the regs have changed).

And that's just what comes to mind in the last 5 minutes of typing.

And they all take exception to our reaction to what they say is "just a little paper work - it won't take much time..."

And all this without any spills, and accidents etc. So the real fear is about what they would do it there really was something actually wrong!

there is hope:

Texas student homeless for 3 YEARS graduates top of his class and wins full college scholarship | Daily Mail Online

I know an 18 year old ex Mormon girl who left home at 15 because she did not see eye to eye with the religion. She had no place to go but a crack house...from that starting point, at 18 she has 30 Units of College Credit at a JC, a paid for car (PT Cruiser), an 800 Credit rating, over $1000 in the bank and has two jobs.

Fint's story is very admirable, for what he has accomplished in his life. However even though he had to hustle to get where he is today, the opportunity was there for the taking. What this means is that the Boomers have never experienced real hardship of having no opportunity, as all they have known is a prosperous post WW2 America. Even Buffet came of age and started his career in this time of prosperity, and that is why he is a perennial optimist about the economy. How many times have I heard him say on TV since 2009 that he economy was about to turn around? How many times has he been wrong about that? Again the Boomers have only known the consequences of taking risk in the abstract, "Ohh yeah I suppose it can happen, but.." That is why the Greatest Gen saved their money as money meant security for them, while the Boomers largely see it as spendable.

What is changing today is that the opportunities are diminishing. Even the flip a burger job is going away to technology, jobs are being outsourced as it is cheaper over seas...

Good post.

While the min wage jobs may be going away in the future, many go unfilled today simply because so many would rather just not work. There seems much more opportunity today...if one would just get off their lazy behind. It was almost impossible to get a job that paid minimum wage of more where/when I grew up.

Not going to dispute that..but you coulda moved to where the opportunity was like CA where there were tons of aerospace jobs, or Detroit where there were car factory jobs...

Lots of European talent moved to the USA after WW2, cause that was where the dinero was... That movement of talent was the reason why America got so far ahead of everybody else in the world in science and technology. The USA for the past dozen years has been losing that edge.

I shoveled snow year round, with a hay fork, uphill.

How would I have even known? It is not like we had cablevision or the internet. How would I have paid for it? Leaving a minimum wage job to move to another minimum wage job on the other side of the country was really beyond the ability of most folks.