He did it was a very good post! I appreciate that most of you do allow for flexibility and much of what you guys point out is probably accurate about a percentage of the population. I think where we may disagree (or perhaps not) is the percentage of the losers. By no means am I saying millennials are a great generation, or a poor generation, I just get frustrated when people talk as if the majority of youth are X. X being lazy, selfish, good for nothing, entitled etc etc. Claiming that the majority of youth aren't outside enough, or don't understand life without tech, or sufferage like the great depression, I agree with. But when it's big generalizations about character and future predicitons, I get frustrated because it's so speculative, but on the other hand, what isn't when your talking about the future.

That erosion is evident, but cultural erosion is like environmental erosion, it isn't selective about the age of the rocks.

Totally agree. There is a percentage of millennials that are bums. That percentage, I'm not exactly sure, but I feel that claims that it is some how much larger then previous generations, are as I said before, conjecture.

Lots of great posts that outline the problems with and mentalities of, the "bum percentage" -- that are spot on. It's the percentage I usually disagree with. Although anecdotal, we often argue that history repeats itself, and as such, more than likely so does the "bum percentage".

Lazy workers are necessary for long-term sustainability in insect societies:

Lazy workers are necessary for long-term sustainability in insect societies : Scientific Reports

JD

You keep getting your back up about millenials

I thought the question QA how did me screw them up?

Why not focus on the question instead of confusing the issue?

Thats fair. A large chunk of the debate started from a video that apparently depicted how stupid millennials are and how the future looks bleak, but I can get it back on topic.

The future looks bleak thanks to Boomers. I think we can all agree on that.

gaw daym Hippies.

JD
Read Cocker's post and it proves just about everything I posted. Nothing but excuses and the stupid idea that things were free for people that came before him... Many who didn't even have indoor plumbing, television, etc...who paid for their own college (couldn't even get a school loan back then...or credit whatsoever). Worked in the fields doing work "that Americans will not do" today for far less than minimum wage. Fast food jobs paid less than minimum wage as well. Most folks could not afford to buy a house on one income as he claims...or even two. Served in the military so that their children would not have to live under communism/socialism (and now the young punks think socialism is cool). Had to pay cash for everything (no credit cards). No WIC, Earned Income Tax Credits, Section 8 housing etc. if you wanted to eat...you got a job. Until you saved up for a car, you walked. Nothing was free...and you expected nothing until you worked a decade or so. No participation trophies where I grew up.

Don't be so defensive, yes, it's Boomers who screwed up the Millenials and wanted everyone to feel special just for showing up in their own little anti-meritocracy.

There is more dysfunction now and it will only get worse in each successive generation. Not fully formed, my thesis is that to bring out the best in human nature, both work and struggle are required. Through no one's fault, technology alone will diminish the quality of the human spirit. But the Boomers helicopter parenting and diminution of competition is additive and accelerates the decline.

FWIW, I remember 25 years ago going on a ski trip and I was the only one out of 6 in the cabin who could start a fire. I got there late and found 3 "perfectly" arranged 5" thick logs charred on the grate and all the starter paper gone.






I think many won't figure out and will only annoy others along the way. Even if they do, they won't have the tools to change and figure out how to become competitive much in the way the cycle of poverty is propagated: Poor or no role models makes breaking out of a cycle very difficult.

Pretty much the world I grew up in. Some of the kids I grew up with wound up dead or in jail at a young age. My parents made sure I got put in different classes than those kids, with stricter teachers.

There was a lot wrong with the Hippy movement and the counter culture, but there was something right about the sniffing of BS in a lot of what America was saying and doing. For many, it became an excuse for a long drug and drinking party. For others, it was just a stepping stone.

The first kids who spent their lives living in mom's basement were teenagers in the 70s. But remember that there was a great need for a lot of labor before that, and I saw all the factories in my home town closing up by the early 80s. I'm not sure how people of average or below average intelligence were supposed to cope with that. But that was a big part of the change.

''Your Majesty is like a stream of Bat Piss." ;)

Extremely well put!

Not all, but many. And surveying as I do from the vantage point of age 52 I can't help but think it's a rapidly growing problem among more and more (but not all JD) youth.

Wow - leave it to the forum I go to for fun and car tech talk to summarize what owning your own company is like better than just about anything else I've ever read in any professional journal or business school text book.

It's terrifying at times. I wonder if the little Punk has ever had to make a payroll, or carry core employees while losing money?

Rest assured JD - if someone was always bagging on my generation I have to admit I'd be defensive too. Especially since you seem like you have a good head on your shoulders and have worked to improve yourself.

Unfortunately you spend time on a forum with mostly men (old farts?) who are mostly a couple of decades older than you. I'd encourage you to take the good that you read and reject the rest; the crap the Boomers (and even those before us) messed up - there's certainly plenty.

You are certainly able to make your points effectively, and it's been a nice discussion. Just do me a couple of favors - get your generation to buy more houses... and watch the name calling! And I'll try to do the same!

...and watch the movie stand by me:)

+ 2.35!!! ....which was the hourly wage I worked for back in '76 as Fint and I have discussed before here. Growing up back then was no free anything....but frankly, I had it easy....compared to my parents' generation, and grand-parents'...far back as you can go. The % of over/under-achievers may have subtle generational variations, but this debate has been going in for thousands of years....:)

Yes. I find all this whining about how rotten this or that generation kind of funny. I imagine you guys as Stadler and Waldorf from the Muppets, sitting around grousing about something you will never do anything about.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1463744003.jpg

Back to " how did we cause all of this"

I have some ideas:

1) We never got defensive. There was no reason to. We always new we weren't good enough.
Instead as kids we just figured out how to do better

2)As adults we became over-achievers

3) As parents our kids were never going to have it as rough as us. Our kids would be better than everyone else's (Real or perceive, or more frequently, contrived).

What caused all of this in us?

1) The depression was a huge influence on our parents, and that influenced us (Thats why we hung on to so much crap and eventually spawned a storage locker industry).

2) To our parents, any job was a good job. We were raised to have a strong work ethic in order to get and retain any job. This training started at a young age painting fences and such. Kids were expected to work, and the work they produced was never good enough. We complained perhaps, but we worked harder and tried to do better.

3) Colour television came along during our lifetime, and with it much different programming than in the very early days of TV. but even the back and white programming had begun seeing the same messages and But we wanted to do better.

4) We cringe when we say the way 30 somethings raise kids today (little johnny)

likely the same way our parents cringed when they saw how we raised ours (such wasteful bunch. That toy can be fixed, don't throw it away and buy a new one).

I think this issue is huge!

Prior to this, people compared themselves to their neighbours, but now they compared themselves to other fictitious people on TV with perfect lives, and in addition I blame Walt Disney.

Based on that, the dreams that our mothers had for us enabled us to literally shoot for the moon (After all, we saw it on TV).

Dad didn't play much of a role in dreams. Dads were burned out from work, constantly stressed about money, and kids were to be seen but not heard.

The difference with the moms and dads of our kids is that while there are a lot of positive things like dads taking a bigger role in the lives of kids, both parents (in whatever % you want to assign to this) wanted their kids to have an easier time of it than they had, and often, unlike our parents, had the financial means to provide it.

In our day growing up to be whatever you wanted to be meant "work hard for what you want"

What I have seen predominantly in our peers (the suburban parents whom I never had a lot in common with) is that:

1)Growing up to be whatever you wanted meant "You can be whatever you want, (you just have to have hope, and it will happen)."

2) Competition among parents was strong (My kid walked at 1 yr. Oh ya, my kid walked at 12 months!

3) If the kids wasn't a stand out star, if they weren't recognized as special, then some other attribute had to be found to make them stand out. As an example, when new allergies were just developing, peanut allergy was discovered, and kids could die form that. Schools banned peanut butter because to some kids just breathing in the smell could cause a reaction. Other parents who felt that their kids was not as special as the peanut kid, found that their kid had a seafood allergy, and requested that although not many kids brought shell fish to school, tuna should be banned because it comes from the sea! Then the kid with a reaction to egg gets dragged in to the principles office eby his or her parents and next thing you know, the school is also sending home a letter banning egg salad sandwiches (even though not airborne, the kid could eat someone else's sandwich)

Jesus! The kid is ten, just teach the damned kid to keep their hand off of other people's food!!

(But that isnt really what that letter was all about now was it? Keeping the kid safe was just a smoke screen to getting on the "somehow special" list)


...and on it goes

As for university, it was anew thing for our generation (for many families it was a big deal to have the first kid to go to university)
There were those jobs, but you could get there other ways, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer (which lead to another issue)

Parent to kid:
You have to go to university or you won't get a job

Kid to parent:
but I want to be a plumber

Parent to kid:
Plumbers don't make any money

Kid to parent:
ok

Parent to anyone they meet:
My Son the doctor, my daughter the lawyer.Aren't they special!

That person they meet:
But the law field is overcrowded and your daughter is out of work

Parent:
Yes, THEY should do something about that. She's worked hard and deserves a job

(ME to all of you: no offence meant if your kid is a doctor or Lawyer );)

You know the answer to that.

To me, the most terrifying part of owning a business is that the government wants to criminalize parts of normal life challenges. They think that they can create a giant prophylactic bubble around the world and create a fantasy dreamland free of risk, pain, and uncertainty. Activists push around government on the local, and state levels. We have an activist in the White House. They rather capriciously come up with draconian laws to require business owners to regularly take it up the ass because THEY don't want to actually do the work to create said dreamland. They want us to do it for them while they sit on the couch eating free government cheese.