Rolex owners, please respond

[pwd72s]

Guys, I have a friend living in Germany who was horrified over quotes received to service his old Rolex over there...so, I told him that many who post here have Rolexes, and have discussions about them. Thus this email:

"Yes, I'd appreciate more info how satisfied Pelican Rolex owners were with the service. Did their watches keep better time? How many seconds a week too fast or slow? Mine is a 1965 Submariner no date indicator, very plain, had maintenance done in 1988. Now loses 4 seconds a day. It is unlike new Submariners that are about twice as thick and clunky. I'm aware new ones are technologically more advanced. But my interest is what can I expect if I go the maintenance route, price and accuracy, for an oldie?"

Any suggestions for my friend? I don't think he liked mine suggesting a $20 Casio for accuracy..

(edit) I did a quick online search and found this service:
http://www2.watchrepair.net/rolex/?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=Bing%20Ads&utm_campaign=Rolex&utm_content=Service-P&utm_term=rolex%20service&_kk=rolex%20service
I'm sure this is the one my friend mentions in his email. Anybody have experience with them?

[Chocaholic]

OMG. Now, I'm not an expert by any means, but a 1965 Submariner is likely worth a lot of money. Not 72S money, but by wrist watch standards, pretty close. As such, I would entrust it to the closest RSC (Rolex Service Center). He will likely need to decide if we wants the dial and hands replaced/refinished, crystal, etc. Please encourage him to do some research. Maybe post a picture on TRF (The Rolex Forum) with his question. If it's value is significant, he's got some careful decisions to make. I wouldn't cheap out on service. He could get it back with a Chinese movement and not know the difference for years.

Update...did a quick search and it seems there were several models of Submariner in that vintage. Here's one example from Chrono24:

http://www.chrono24.com/en/rolex/submariner-5512-1965-tropical--glossy-gilt-4-lines-dial--id3863083.htm

Definitely worth doing a bit of research.

[BeyGon]

I don't know, what does he do that he misses four seconds a day. I am sure my Rolex isn't that close and I am not sending it in for service because of it.

[Neilk]

Originally Posted by BeyGon

I don't know, what does he do that he misses four seconds a day. I am sure my Rolex isn't that close and I am not sending it in for service because of it.

Well he does live in Germany where timeliness is everything. When my German uncle tells us about his trips, he leaves at 7:07AM, it takes 42 minutes and he arrives at 7:49... So after a few days, those 4 seconds makes a difference!

[rwest]

I just started a subscription to Watchtimes magazine and looking through the digital archives, it seems to me that losing 4 seconds a day isn't too bad, although I think the watch people like to see any inaccuracies to the positive side. Like others have said, the chance of getting an counterfeit movement installed would make me want to do business with some one close by.

[Chocaholic]

As I recall, COSC (certified chronometer) standards allow 6 sec/day variability. 4 sec is not indication of a problem. But if it hasn't been cleaned/lubed sine 1988...it's due.

[pwd72s]

Thanks for your responses guys. Sent a link to my friend Stan, so he can read responses. I know zilch about them...never spent much more than $200 for a watch myself.

[MMiller]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

OMG. Now, I'm not an expert by any means, but a 1965 Submariner is likely worth a lot of money. Not 72S money, but by wrist watch standards, pretty close. As such, I would entrust it to the closest RSC (Rolex Service Center). He will likely need to decide if we wants the dial and hands replaced/refinished, crystal, etc. Please encourage him to do some research. Maybe post a picture on TRF (The Rolex Forum) with his question. If it's value is significant, he's got some careful decisions to make. I wouldn't cheap out on service. He could get it back with a Chinese movement and not know the difference for years.

Update...did a quick search and it seems there were several models of Submariner in that vintage. Here's one example from Chrono24:

Rolex Submariner 5512 (1965) TROPICAL Glossy Gilt 4-lines Dial for $20,313 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24

Definitely worth doing a bit of research.

I think this is good advice here.. I would be very careful who I left it with for service. It would be a Rolex AD for sure. I think his watch is the original "Bond" watch or a very close relative. Just for fun it would be cool to see pics.

[BeyGon]

Originally Posted by Neilk

Well he does live in Germany where timeliness is everything. When my German uncle tells us about his trips, he leaves at 7:07AM, it takes 42 minutes and he arrives at 7:49... So after a few days, those 4 seconds makes a difference!

yeah, I see your point, in two weeks he will need to correct it for that minute

[intakexhaust]

A rewind to the 1980's when fashion was the Datejust and Miami Vice. Brand new from a large certified retailer, the gawdy thing never kept perfect time. In for service and a pricey $250 clean, never was accurate. Though, I never bought it for its accuracy. Who's kidding who?

And yes, my solar powered, atomic timed, World Casio for $18 is techno brilliant and perfect.

Lastly, who even cares? The Germans and legendary on-time trains are no longer based on some operating engineers Rolex.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

As such, I would entrust it to the closest RSC (Rolex Service Center). He will likely need to decide if we wants the dial and hands replaced/refinished, crystal, etc.

Yep, a factory service is usually the way to go. However...

If the dial and hands are original, I would strongly advise that he NOT replace them. A factory replacement (service) dial and/or hands on a vintage Sub would instantly devalue it, even if the original parts are a bit "rough". Same goes for the bezel insert. Natural age/patina/imperfections are actually sought out by collectors, and can significantly increase the value ("tropical" or "spider" dials for example).

The problem is that most RSC locations will insist on replacing the dial and hands, as they do not like to let anything leave there that isn't 100% functional. Seeing as the lume on the hands and dial on a vintage sub are tritium, they would have lost their glow long ago. As such, an RSC would typically insist on replacing them. They would keep/destroy the original parts as well, and not send them back with the watch. IMO, the only exception where a service dial and/or hands would be welcome is if the originals were already ruined previously by an amateur refinish/re-lume job.

The other issue is that the factory RSC would polish/refinish the case and bracelet, which would also devalue it a bit. It would be done properly, and they typically do a great job with a "less is more" approach to removing metal (unlike most heavy-handed jewelers/dealers who have a tendency to completely ruin watches with the buffing wheel). Still, It's something that I wouldn't opt for on a vintage Sub if I had the choice. That said, there are a couple RSC's that will service a watch without replacing original dials/hands and leave the refinishing as an option. The Dallas RSC is one of them I believe, whereas the NY RSC wouldn't even consider it.

The other option is to go with an independent. I'd prefer that it be a CW21 or CMW21 certified watchmaker, and preferably one with experience with vintage Rolexes, and a Rolex parts account (or at least access to genuine parts).

On a watch of that age/caliber, I'd be calling the guys at ABC Watchwerks in LA. They are excellent, especially when it comes to the vintage stuff. They are not cheap, but neither is a 60's Submariner.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

As I recall, COSC (certified chronometer) standards allow 6 sec/day variability. 4 sec is not indication of a problem. But if it hasn't been cleaned/lubed sine 1988...it's due.

+1

If it's losing 4+ seconds a day, it isn't a huge deal but it does indicate that the movement needs a little love fairly soon. It's better to service it now, as opposed to waiting until it starts loosing minutes per day. It's probably bone dry, and full of "brake dust" by now. The gaskets are probably all shot, and I certainly wouldn't be swimming/diving with it at this point. YMMV...

[flyenby]

I would try ABC watch works in Los Angeles, Cal. Do not let the factory touch that watch.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

Yep, a factory service is usually the way to go. However...

If the dial and hands are original, I would strongly advise that he NOT replace them. A factory replacement (service) dial and/or hands on a vintage Sub would instantly devalue it, even if the original parts are a bit "rough". Same goes for the bezel insert. Natural age/patina/imperfections are actually sought out by collectors, and can significantly increase the value ("tropical" or "spider" dials for example).

The problem is that most RSC locations will insist on replacing the dial and hands, as they do not like to let anything leave there that isn't 100% functional. Seeing as the lume on the hands and dial on a vintage sub are tritium, they would have lost their glow long ago. As such, an RSC would typically insist on replacing them. They would keep/destroy the original parts as well, and not send them back with the watch. IMO, the only exception where a service dial and/or hands would be welcome is if the originals were already ruined previously by an amateur refinish/re-lume job.

The other issue is that the factory RSC would polish/refinish the case and bracelet, which would also devalue it a bit. It would be done properly, and they typically do a great job with a "less is more" approach to removing metal (unlike most heavy-handed jewelers/dealers who have a tendency to completely ruin watches with the buffing wheel). Still, It's something that I wouldn't opt for on a vintage Sub if I had the choice. That said, there are a couple RSC's that will service a watch without replacing original dials/hands and leave the refinishing as an option. The Dallas RSC is one of them I believe, whereas the NY RSC wouldn't even consider it.

The other option is to go with an independent. I'd prefer that it be a CW21 or CMW21 certified watchmaker, and preferably one with experience with vintage Rolexes, and a Rolex parts account (or at least access to genuine parts).

On a watch of that age/caliber, I'd be calling the guys at ABC Watchwerks in LA. They are excellent, especially when it comes to the vintage stuff. They are not cheap, but neither is a 60's Submariner.

Eric is on the money here- if it were mine (the owner may feel differently), I would want to protect its provenance, and not have, potentially, new hands and dial installed even by the factory. As has been pointed out, the COSC standard is -4/+6 per day, so an elderly watch losing 4 secs is quite acceptable, especially if its losing 4 secs every day, consistently. If it were mine, I would wear it till stopped, then get it serviced.

I would look for an independent service centre/watch maker (not a jeweller) in Europe, the more local the better - shipping internationally can be problematic. I lost an IWC once in shipping. IWC replaced it, but the watch I have now isn't my watch.

Sadly, the cost of service on mechanical watches is part of the deal. Otherwise the Casio option applies....

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

+1

If it's losing 4+ seconds a day, it isn't a huge deal but it does indicate that the movement needs a little love fairly soon. It's better to service it now, as opposed to waiting until it starts loosing minutes per day. It's probably bone dry, and full of "brake dust" by now. The gaskets are probably all shot, and I certainly wouldn't be swimming/diving with it at this point. YMMV...

+2

He is within COSC (which is -4/+6 per day) and frankly you are in good shape as far as accuracy if your mechanical is within that range... that is considered to be "factory" accuracy for a modern high quality watch. When his watch was manufactured, COSC did not exist and none of the Rolexes of that era were certified.

He should still get the watch serviced per the advice of others, but if he is expecting to address the gain or loss in seconds each day then he should be prepared for dissapointment.

That being said, I would sell a kidney for a 60s submariner which hasn't been overhauled to the point of being a modern watch.

[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

As such, I would entrust it to the closest RSC (Rolex Service Center). He will likely need to decide if we wants the dial and hands replaced/refinished, crystal, etc.

Definitely worth doing a bit of research.

NOOOOOOOO! No effing way.

RSC have zero respect for these watches. They will change everything and anything that makes it precious. Dial, bezel, hands, then polish the case, de facto lowering the watches worth to about 1/10th its value as an original piece.

Tell your friend to go on this page:

Vintage Rolex Discussion - Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum

and educate himself before losing about 10K$ Worth at the hands of.... Rolex themselves.

[spuggy]

Some great advice on this thread - especially "avoid RSC". There are independents that give great service and won't bling it up to look new - unless he wants to. The one in Post Street in SF has been around a very long time.

He should also probably read: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-your-rolex-isnt-keeping-perfect-time-chris-wiley

I'd either forgotten - or never heard - the advice to wind 20 rotations once per month. Note the 5-6 year service interval.

Also, sounds like he's never heard this:




From Keeping your Rolex Accurate - which also gives a 5-6 year service interval. And states -4/+6 seconds per day is normal.

[WPOZZZ]

Originally Posted by spuggy

Some great advice on this thread - especially "avoid RSC". There are independents that give great service and won't bling it up to look new - unless he wants to. The one in Post Street in SF has been around a very long time.

He should also probably read: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-your-rolex-isnt-keeping-perfect-time-chris-wiley

I'd either forgotten - or never heard - the advice to wind 20 rotations once per month. Note the 5-6 year service interval.

Also, sounds like he's never heard this:




From Keeping your Rolex Accurate - which also gives a 5-6 year service interval. And states -4/+6 seconds per day is normal.

That is great info on self regulation.

[stuartj]

Yes- "Adjusted to 5 positions" refers to this.

[javadog]

Some bad advice here, from those suggesting to avoid using Rolex Service centers. My history with Rolex goes back 35 years. I've never had anything but a successful outcome when sending a watch back to Rolex. On the few occasions that I used an independent, in every case I had a bad experience. Those independents varied from the local "factory trained guru" to the largest independent watch service company in the US.

I never had Rolex recommend that a dial be changed.

I never had Rolex recommend that the hands be changed, apart from one ladies watch that had been modified with a factory diamond dial. In that case, it wasn't because of the conditions of the hands, but because the correct hands for that dial were slightly shorter.

I never had a case refinished that didn't look correct when it was finished. They don't ruin the lines of the case when refinishing one.

They will give you a list of recommended work, with the estimate. You have the option of not doing everything on their list.

They will sometimes do favors for you, if you are a known customer. They did them for me, for free.

The biggest question at this point is whether they have the correct parts for a Submariner of that vintage. I'm not talking about the visible things like a dial, bezel, etc. I'm talking about internal parts. If they don't have the parts, they won't service the watch.

The last vintage Sub they serviced for me was a 5512. It came back looking new and 100% original; when I sold it it realized a very nice price, even though it had no precious "patina." Those buyers that think abnormal wear is "patina" and makes a watch more valuable can all go F*** themselves. Just my opinion.

The last Sub they worked on for me was bought new around 2000. I wore it 24 hours a day, never took it off, and it was regulated to about perfect. Didn't gain or lose any time on a daily basis, when I wore it.

JR