Baylor, Stanford, etc. it is nothing new
 

This past weekend my wife, her sister (late/mid 60's)and our daughter (mid 40s) were sitting around sharing a bottle of wine and the subject of campus rape came up. Wonder why?? ALL 3 started discussing what had happened to them when in college and there was a very common thread:
Naive 18 YO freshmen (wife and her sister from very small town high schools) at Big State U.
Being invited to Frat mixers
The booze of choice in those days (grape juice and EverClear) and encourage to "drink up".
As the night wore on being cornered and isolated by BMOCs (football players in all 3 instances - after all this is TX). None were actually raped but not because of the BMOC not trying.
The main thing they discussed though was how they felt absolutely powerless while being cornered, groped and all but sexually assaulted by 200+ lb. males...

and they had all pushed it to the back of their memories but it had all come back with the recent happenings, particularly at Stanford. Wife said she could remember little of college from 50 years ago but that night? she could remember every thing including the guys name and exactly what he looked like.

Wonder how many of your wives, significant others had similar experiences ??

I suspect it is a lot more common than most men think.

I dated a lady many years ago that was assaulted and almost raped. Only because there was one young MAN that stood up to the other "BMOCs" and he managed to stop it.

She pointed out one thing to me that shocked me with how obvious it was.

As a guy I have walked around in some sketchy areas and situations and never even thought about being raped. She was a 110 pound attractive woman and she said it is something that is always in the front of her mind.

We probably don't realize the extent of the issue, because most women don't want to talk to men about it for risk of being judged or blamed.

One of my friends told me last year that she was roofied at a party when she was ~20 and came to half undressed, with her "friend" on top of her

A girl I was dating a while ago told me she was raped by her roomate's brother after a party at university. Happened on campus, administration encouraged her to settle

Another friend of mine was catching a cab home after a wedding, one of the groom's friends asked if he could tag along, got off at her stop and assaulted her. She didn't want to make a fuss afterwards and "embarass" the groom by outing his brother

If you are a Rapist you are a low life scum bag....

And, there are no excuses that you can give.

I'm sure that there are some cases where the deed was consensual and then the girl got pissed and decided to get revenge or something equally unsavory, but I suspect those are a tenth of a percent or less.

I'm less and less inclined to think it's as simple as that. I bet we all have a friend who is a really good guy who has raped/assaulted someone and just doesn't see it that way.

Even in those situations I cited above,2 of the women didn't make a stink about it because it was someone they knew, and they felt like they wouldn't be believed and they would be criticized. The one who DID make a fuss and pursued it had a terrible time, lost many friends and ended up dropping out of university.

Just think back to when you were in high school and university, how certain drinks were called "panty removers" etc. I'm not talking about getting boozed up and hooking up... I think a lot of guys get defensive because we enjoyed that *consentual* play. But there is a difference between enjoying the company of a woman who is horny because she is drunk vs specifically trying to get (or find) women too drunk too say no... that stuff goes on WAY more than we realize
There was a guy in high school that we had to consistently pull away from girls at parties. Nice guy, everyone liked him... everyone. But when he was drinking he'd get increasingly aggressive with girls, trying to get them drunk, trying to corner them. We'd keep an eye out and warn girls to watch out, and after a while he stopped being invited or would be sent packing... but he must have ended up at other parties.

I'm not sure that makes it any less wrong. I'm sure the 17yo ricer weaving in and out of traffic at 80 in a 35mph zone doesn't think he's actually doing anything wrong. Maybe not a good example, but really, not that far off.

That really sucks for all 3, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I would disagree. Two drunks fumbling through an unfortunate tryst is one thing, rape/assault is another matter entirely.

You're both 100% right, I guess my point wasn't made well.

We tend to imagine rapists as someone really different from the people around us. Women do too, and they learn the hard way that's not the truth. The majority of women are raped by someone they know, not some stranger who randomly accosts them. That's scary

And it doesn't have to happen at an ivy league college.

My first girlfriend lived in low income housing with her single alcoholic mother.

She liked hanging out with a group of older kids who were a bunch of hippy dead heads... one day she got left alone with two of the guys... they didn't almost rape her they did the deed.

Another lady friend got pulled into the bushes at knife point on the UCLA campus.

The evil that men do...

One of my roommates in college was a beautiful young girl, all american swimmer, and served as one of the "mascot babes" when the football recruits were brought on campus. Her rape didn't occur during one of those events however it did occur....she never reported it. It's pretty common, and no amount of alcohol, friendliness, etc. can justify a despicable act upon a female.

The military is acknowledging a significant sexual harassment/sexual assault problem. And the majority of the incidents are male-on-male.

Part of the problem is the double-standards around sexuality and objectification. For instance pretty much everyone thinks that an adult male in a position of authority (e.g. a teacher) having sex with a underage female is wrong. Yet switch the genders and it is "gee, where were the hottie teachers when I was a kid" and fist pumping.

Assault is assault, rape is rape. Our culture objectifies and provides tacit (and sometimes overt) approval. Then we wonder why bad things happen.

OK, yeah, I can agree with that.

Every story shared here is an example of rape culture. We need to believe women when they say we live in a rape culture, and then we need to work for change.

I have frequent, and direct, conversations with the three young men in my blended family about consent. They don't necessarily like it, but they do hear it.

Now I am trying to figure out how, as a dad, I can have an equally direct and meaningful conversation with my daughter (13). The consent part is easy. But about all the other components that are part of helping her in the 21st Century.

Have any dads here had that conversation with their daughters?

I don't think this is quite accurate. The incidence of rape is quite low in the military (unless you multiply the actual number times some huge nonsense multiplier that represents unreported cases to make it seem that way)...and almost nonexistent in some services (compared to the same age group and living condition in society). The "majority" are not male-on-male in any service (especially when you consider the much larger percentage of males)...although it is up significant this administration since "don't ask don't tell" became "gays are us" and being openly gay has become celebrated and popularized both in the military and Federal service with a huge emphasis on making gays and transsexuals another group deserving of "extra" opportunity. Much effort and money is spent on constant gay pride training, events, groups, months, etc. to celebrate gayness much like we celebrate women who report sexual harassment (whether a reasonable person would think it occurred or not). Make anything popular enough or supported by leadership enough and you will end up with more of it. We used to encourage bravery, leadership and efficiency.

I went to basically an all girls school on an island as an undergrad. After September finished and the winds of October kicked in, the boy friends back home weren't paying as much attention as what the summer afforded. I put in zero effort for bountiful gains. I knew that it was not reality and that in no real place outside of that small college in Newport RI would I or any other guy (all 114 of us) would ever have so much opportunity to explore our virility without even as much as trying out corny lines or attempting to get them tipsy. We didn't have to. Bacchus and Aphrodite had conjured up the plan, we were merely tools at their disposal. Friends from other schools would visit. They couldn't fathom it until witnessed.

I can not relate or even understand how a young man could force himself on a girl let alone getting her drunk to do so. I was never witness to it and the thought is abhorrent. The most aggressive I ever was entailed a coy smile and a suggestion to take a walk on the beach.

Any man who uses drugs or physical superiority to rape a woman is undeserving of respect, sympathy or being called "a man".

Someone mentioned false accusations. Here is a long article about rape on campus that also addresses what can happen to a male student who thought it was consensual and later learned the girl claimed it wasn't.

Campus rape and efforts to protect the women

False accusations of rape are estimated to be somewhere around 5%. Every instance of that is abhorrent and has severe impacts, but in terms of things we should be worried about it pales in comparison to the statistic that 85% or rapes go UNREPORTED, and of those, the ones that are reported rarely result in a conviction.

How could we ever know if false accusations are 5% and unreported tapes are 85%...if unreported? These are just manufactured statistics to further a cause.

One of my friends at work daughter was sexually assaulted at her college this year, by a swim team member I guess this school has a history of trouble with the swim team. School went after her to keep it hush hush complete BS. My daughter starts college in 2017 I'm really worried about it.

For the US, the higher estimate of false accusations in 8%, by the FBI. That statistic includes instances where they consider the accusation UNFOUNDED (it appears the victim didn't fight back, can't prove force was used). Do you think the FBI is inclined to "manufacture" their statistic?

I'm not criticizing your characterization per se (it's secondhand report of a statistic) but it is worth pointing out that the fact that a rape victim did not fight back does not mean she was not raped.

Exactly right, which is why the FBI's 8% stat is often criticized as being distorted. Most organizations that study it closely put it at 2-5%

You know. If I was a parent and my son did this, I would not make a plea like Brock Turner's dad did. I'd probably say "You f-ed up, I taught you better than that. Go serve the time you get."

Again, that's my gut reaction as a non-parent.

Where do you get your data?

What cause?

Or at least, "That's a hard sentence for 20 minutes of felonious behavior."
OTOH, being labeled as a sex offender for the rest of your life for a first offense of this kind is pretty steep. A problem with this is a drunk kid molesting a drunk girl is not the same as a repeat sexual predator stalking and preying on vulnerable sober women, but the primary punishment (a lifetime of registering as a sex offender) is similar. I think this minimizes the seriousness of the predator's crimes. A bank robber can get 10 years in prison and he's done. This kid is a pariah the rest of his life. I would like to see more prison time for him, and when he's out he can start a new life.

So what?

There are teens who are pariahs for doing statutory rape for the rest of their lives even if it were consensual.

I can't condone what something like what Brock did. First time or not. Alcohol or not. He f-ed up and I won't stand behind that.

Say I killed someone while drunk. Do you think I deserve more leniency than someone who committed a similar crime while sober? I don't think that should be used as an excuse. You made the choices you made and now you lie in it.

Unfortunately, a timely thread. My GF's bestie just got drugged/raped last week in Miami. She went out to a local pub after work to grab a bite to eat and someone bought her a drink. Literally the next thing she remembers is waking up in her hotel room several hours later with no clothes on and very sore and bleeding in 'many places'. She went to the hospital, got a rape kit and they tested her urine and sure enough, she had been drugged. What a piece of total SH#T that guy is..
Oh, and she is 41, so doesn't just happen to the younger girls..

The DoD report that they do each year.

They are not statistics, they are estimates....which are informed guesses. There is no way of knowing how many rapes occurred that were not reported (because they were not reported)...or how many false accusations there were...since all would be he said, she said unless one confessed.

Just so I understand, is it your belief that the US department of Justice "manufactured statistics to further a cause"?

https://www.nsopw.gov/en-CA/Education/FactsStatistics

If so, what "cause" do you think they are promoting, and to what end?

What ever are you talking about? You did not post any facts ...as I stated. All are made up. While there are indeed some actual statistics in some of the document posted, the things you posted are not.

You tell me how you count how many rapes were not reported that actually happened...how you know they actually happened, etc.

You can't even reliably tell me how many reported rapes actually happened....much less this nonsense.

I don't know why they make up data. Probably because they had a grant to do so. Obviously they have a purpose that these statistics help them with...probably to justify funding...or why would they publish the numbers?

I'm not following your logic. You're saying that you suspect organizations are making up stats on unreported rapes? for grant money or to "promote a cause"?

Did you read your own article? The folks doing the "reporting" are not necessarily the same folks coming up with the numbers. Yes. Most folks who do this type of work (coming up with data where none exists) do so on government grants or as a college thesis. Most organizations interested in this type work...or a particular question like this also usually have a particular position they are trying to support. Why else would anyone set out to create data instead of relying on actual reported data?

Why do you think they create this data? Do you not believed that they are paid to do so? There is a huge industry around this. I personally get trained on this several times a year...as do millions of others in the military or Federal government. It is a huge industry.

Back to the silly, made up statistics you are so adamant are accurate. I'm not following you logic. If we could count everyone who is raped and does not report it, why would anyone need to report it...as we would already know? Why have we not arrested all these rapists?

...and if we already knew how many rape cases were not false accusations...why would we ever have to have a trial? We could just sentence the guilty and free the innocent.

Well the FBI's stat of 8% is based on crimes reported to police.
On the DOJ site, they cite several 3rd party studies. Are you asking me if it bothers me that DOJ uses and quotes 3rd party studies? Not really. I'm willing to assume that the DOJ vetted their information carefully and can be trusted to have used statistics that they found to be from reputable sources. That seems like a reasonable assumption on my part, unless I'm missing something.
NHTSA compiles and creates data and are part of huge industries as well. Do you think it's reasonable to suspect that they fudge numbers to make highway safety seem like it's a big issue? They employ A LOT of people... car/road safety is a HUGE INDUSTRY, you know.

I'm pretty comfortable accepting that the NHTSA was created and funded to address an issue that was deemed serious by experts that studied the information. I am naive though, so feel free to set me straight.
I'm not adamant the statistics are accurate, but as I stated, it strikes me as reasonable to accept information from people who have studied the issue. Obviously, you are not comfortable with them being experts or providing reasonably accurate information. Feel free to post the information that you think is more valid than that of the FBI or DOJ.

It seems pretty reasobale to me to accept the information that law enforcement, universities, student organizations etc have compiled by surveying women and students. You know, they ask a bunch of women "have you ever been assaulted", and "did yiu report it", "were charges laid" etc etc. If there were dozens of these surveys done, and they all tended to show similar results pointing to a really serious problem... my inclination is to think, "wow... that seems like a serious problem."

In contrast, your inclination is to see it as "manufactured statistics to advance a cause"

I dunno, maybe you're onto something, and I should think about my bias, because I see the info and think that the information seems reasonable and concerning, and the "cause" seems pretty damn worthy.

Sounds to me like you really agree that they made up the numbers...and are fine with that.

The way they do these studies is to get a bunch of women together and talk to them about rape. Define it very loosely...and give examples like...your husband demands sex all the time. Sometimes you really don't feel like it...but you give in. Rape. Then ask the women...how many of them know someone who was raped and did not report it. 90% raise their hands...as they think they might. Since they are from the same group and know the same people...many may be talking about the very same person. There is no way to tell because no names are asked. Some may have heard a woman claim rape who really was not (he said, she said). Suddenly, the math shows that almost ever man has raped someone. Oh my!

When you make up "statistics" in this manner, they say whatever you design the study to show. Been there, done that, collected the paycheck.

Go out and stand by the highway and tell me how many of the cars are speeding. Should I accept your statistics and arrest them? Better yet...ask any group how many people driving faster than them are maniacs and how many slower are idiots.

There is absolutely no way to tell how many actual rapes are unreported or how many reported ones were false accusations. The only real facts are how many are reported and how many reported cases are overturned. The rest is little better than sheer conjecture. I can very easily manufacture a "study" to provide exactly the opposite indications.

Get some real data. Obviously if that many women are raped each year and do not report it...a high percentage of men have raped a women. Do a poll here and ask how many of themen have raped a woman. See if those "statistics" match up with the ones you have reported.

Wow, really, that's how it's done eh? Right up until this moment, I was pretty confident that there would be some scrutiny as to how this stuff is studied. Shows how naïve I was. Who do we call to tell them they're doing it wrong??

You can do a "study" and get any conclusion you like once you decide it is ok to stray from actual data and start extrapolating based on some other factor. The reader of the study has to examine how the folks doing the "study" arrived at their numbers and if the reader finds it acceptable. As someone who used to do these studies for a living, I can tell you that there is no real way to determine with any confidence how many women in the U.S. were raped and did not report it (although if you want to hire me to do so, I can think of plenty of strategies where we can come up with a number that you can use...and justify by citing my study).