Hi Fred.

Pull an oil sample and have it analyzed. Or did he dump the oil already? I know 6k on regular oil is waaaay too long especially on a tight clearance BMW engine. I would not go that far an a synthetic either. Check the viscosity number on the results of the oil analysis- that will tell the story.

^^^ actually that is not true per BMW^^^

The previous generations of E39, E38, etc - were programed to go as long as 15K between oil services depending upon how hard it was ran. This was measured essentially through injector pulse width / time / RPM's and ambient temperature.

The current generations utilizes similar, but more comprehensive measurements called CSB - or (Condition Based Service), but the mileage target of 15K remains believe it or not.

I personally service mine @5K - It gives me piece of mind...........

On all my BMW's, even my 98 m3, it says, WITH A BIG NOTICE, you should use only bmw recommened synthetic oil in this engine. I think this guy was just being cheap.

Is it an M car? I think those have the s85 engine. Crazy tight tolerances that result in rod bearing failures at an abnormally high rate. Smarter folks than me think the 10w/60 oil BMW recommends is way too thick.

Excerpt for a blog called 540rat.

After going through all that, it turned out that the root cause of all those failures was that BMW had designed/built the engines with insufficient rod bearing clearance (barely large enough for 5W30 motor oil and WAY too tight for super thick oil), insufficient connecting rod side clearance, and they called for insanely thick 10W60 motor oil, which is WAY too thick for acceptable oil flow/lubrication/cooling. It was a perfect storm of doing multiple things completely wrong to actually “cause” rod bearing failures. It was extremely disappointing to see BMW do such a poor job at designing/building those engines. They actually unintentionally designed the engines so that the rod bearings “would” fail. I would have expected far better from them.

Thanks for pointing this out. 15k on non synthetic? Or does BMW spec synthetic oil? What weight? ( sorry I really don't know) Only real way is to have it analyzed. Anyways to approach 15k oil changes it better be some good stuff! Or have 20 quarts in the system.




asphaltgambler;9227544]^^^ actually that is not true per BMW^^^

The previous generations of E39, E38, etc - were programed to go as long as 15K between oil services depending upon how hard it was ran. This was measured essentially through injector pulse width / time / RPM's and ambient temperature.

The current generations utilizes similar, but more comprehensive measurements called CSB - or (Condition Based Service), but the mileage target of 15K remains believe it or not.

I personally service mine @5K - It gives me piece of mind...........[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure BMW-branded synthetic oil is made by Castrol or whatever other manufacturer won the bid for that model and year. Other than motorcycles, I don't think BMW has used dino oil in the factory fills for many years. So going with dino is just asking for a warranty claim denial. It's probably not a bad thing if you live in a mild climate and change the oil every 3k miles. Still, it's less frequent work and not much more money to go with synthetic for each oil change. Why not err on the side of caution?

Good for you.

The maintenance schedule in the owner's manual isn't from Jiffy Lube, it was written by the engineers at SOA. Not one of those tuners, nor anyone else in that forum will pay for a shortblock if it spins a bearing on Rotella.

Millions of Subarus go up and down the road without all that extraneous BS they recommend, and warranty under Subaru terms is just that. Do you see them blowing up everywhere? I don't.

They run fine (stock) without all the tuner stories and BS. Oh, and YES, I trust the owner's manual before I trust some Bro in that forum. Those "tuners" make $$$ charging $500/pop for those custom tunes, and negligible benefits, except a car that is hair-trigger sensitive to fuel.

It's a racket. None of 'em will help you either when it pops due to tune.

Good luck with your WRX. If it pops, at least the forums will tell you it's not their fault ;) I'm confident my 2016 will stay running if I use SOA recommended maintenance procedures.

PS 15w40 isn't within spec for my EJ, and according to the manual it should only be used to avoid running out of oil. I use rotella myself in anything that can use that weight and oil.

It's just something that people who want to "mod" cars do- it's a psychological thing- right up there with the "CAI" (cold air intake- in practice, HOT air intake) - mostly detrimental. Factory oil and weight on an otherwise stock engine is FINE.

Rotella probably isn't hurting much, but it sure as hell isn't necessary and proposes an otherwise unnecessary (Warranty) risk. I've got 25K between my EJ257 and FA20 on STOCK tunes, SUBARU oil with zero oil loss, consumption, and no blown pistons with abuse- in NASIOC I'd be considered insane for daring to run a STI like that with no bro tune and 15/40. I know many other owners will over 100K with nothing but 5w30 and no forum voodoo done to their cars. Stock tune even ;)

$40K car, and the kids instantly take it out of warranty by doing that crap. Then try to change it back for warranty when despite what they read- it pops. Bad scene all around.

Mind you, if the engine has been torn apart and built up - do what you will but on a stock on it's unnecessary.

rjp

It seems service intervals are much shorter on your side of the ocean. I am on my 7th BMW (from e46 to f30) and the mileage target has always been about 20k miles between service. Always wondered why there seems to be this difference between US and Europe.

I had 186 K on my old WRX when I sold it. Ran great. But I'm thinking that it was the BMW owner who was taking oil advice from his ''lube'' friend, not you.

It's great that your cars are stock, and run a stock tune. NASIOC is not about that. Ranting on them in this thread isn't really to the point of this thread. If you have a problem with NASIOC, don't post there. Again, T6 is within spec for my car. It would not affect my warranty, if my warranty was still in effect.

Blown up BMW, wrong engine oil, whose fault? The real question isn't who's fault, but who is liable. Fred is being a nice guy, and it will probably cost him money. In the long run though, being a good guy often comes back to us in good will. In my profession, the owner is liable to me for all costs, not the insurer. The insured collects the money and pays me, or does not collect the money, and still pays me. I am clear about that up front.

Why to NASIOC people get so butt-hurt when you question them? Did I lie or make something up?

actually, T6 would get you voided. They obfuscate that fact on the forum using armchair legalese.- same with that silly distinction they love to bring up about the term "voided" VS. "denied"- the tuners who charge love to hide behind that distinction. Try to tell SOA you changed your oil with Rotella, give them receipts and see what they do to you.

So, when the noob spends his $$$ on the fancy tune on his brand new WRX or whatever, expecting to gain all kinds of HP

"does it void my warranty? "

the dealer can't "VOID" warranty!

Kid assumes it's all good.

Engine pops- subaru "denies" warranty due to improper oil and mods.

I don't post there, I don't even have an account.. Been around enough of 'em to know what I'm dealing with. PS it is relevant to this thread- chances are the Jiffy Lube guy didn't tell him to do that, they always try to upsell + their system will note the type of oil that is REQUIRED.

The point is, someone probably fed the owner an old wives tale, and now he pays for it. BMW or any manufacturer will scalp him.

rjp

The only real way to the drain intervals is to pull an oil sample to get a baseline as to the oil condition. But I think 5000 miles would be my limit using the best oil and the right weight recommended by the mfg. Not much of an upside extending the drain period if oil is not doing it'd job.

Remember the mfg just wants to get past the warrantee period and the rest is on you.

I think in this case the oil thickened up, sludged up and rod bearings gave up. Also, just just didn't happen overnight but an extended abuse period. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Quick lube guy may have put the wrong stuff in also.

PS - I just won a 3 year battle with GM on my 2009 Buick Enclave timing chain replacement that said initially it was caused by "dirty oil"

OK - if its the wrong weight it might contribute to issues but putting in the proper viscosity and using an API approved oil won't fail and engine. If the oil was to light or too heavy it would have to be out by 2 grades to create issues and even then not so much.

Easy to blame the oil, but that is not the reason for failure.

Oil analysis is cheap - offered at NAPA and CARQUEST. Oils these days are pretty well formulated and the different between synthetic and mineral based isn't going to be all that noticeable on a daily driver. I know a very good mechanic that uses used oil he drains from other cars in his cars. he thinks people change oil way too soon. I have access to tons of data and I agree. I went 43,000 miles on the same oil without a filter or oil change. Yes, I sweetened it due to pulling 4 oz samples every 3000 miles.

I have tons of documentation that diesel engine will go 40 to 50K between changes. Granted, a different engine and fuel but I shows just how far oil formulas have come.

Napa and carquest do oil analysis? Didn't know that... Is it on site?

Good to know,, since you ARE the expert.. I have a question.. what about the time between oil changes if the car is a garage queen just sitting there.. Does oil age ? I mean it's already million of years old right ?

Why would a bottom end bearing fail, and not something in the top end? It's as if it's a parts failure or something related to the engine manufacture process.

Thread needs carnage pics

Good thread, and we're going to learn a bit if Lubey sticks with it, but we're confusing issues, I think.
I don't think anyone actually believes that a couple oil changes with dino oil failed a BMW with an auto trans...I mean really?
But if you've ever dealt with any aftermarket warranty co, you'll soon find that they will deny for any reason they can grab. Outta spec oil, outta here! A real shame really.
And the biggest shame is that the car is tying up Fred's time/space/lift/lot whatever while its sorted, an in the end he won't break even. But its customer service, and you gotta do it to stay alive.

Lube- what are your thoughts on shear?

There's lots of noise about oil shearing down to a lower weight and as a result, less protection. Blackstone uses comments that imply it's not a good thing?

You do realize that Rotella T6 is 5w40 full synthetic, right? Still void the warrantee?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shell+rotella+t6&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

BMW's oil has for the last 20 years been exclusively Castrol re-branded. To answer why the interval is 'shorter' in the US may have something to do with the additives in the fuel here.

nope - it gets sent to a lab

doesn't really age like it would if in a running engine and even then the only real chemical reactions occur would be oxidation brought on by high heat, water, fuel dilution, some yellow metal to catalyze, maybe coolant if your so unlucky. Some of the oxidation can be minimized by the acid neutralizers found in the oil but at some point they get used up. When its formulated right it does a fine job at establishing a film between the moving parts and as temp increases, the surface active agents that help with wear kick in to form a layer.

Everything has a shelf life but motor oil is a few years easy - say 3 to 7.

That's a very severe lubrication regime upon start-up. That main bearing most likely has the most stress upon it. Not sure about the BMW but until the bearing has established what is called hydrodynamic film formation its at the mercy of boundary film and that is where the most wear occurs during start-up. If you have a tendency to rev you engine at start up your not giving the oil a chance to separate the babbit surface. The more revs with out mixed film or hydrodynamic film and the more times the semi-lubricated surface is presented...more wear sooner.

Its a good reason to not rev the engine at start-up.

While it is possible for engine oil to shear down, I have seen it mostly when oil blenders try to achieve a 0W30 or 0W40. Normally you can't get that sort of a cold crank viscosity and a high operating viscosity without the use of viscosity index improvers and thats what will shear under harsh conditions. They are polymers that are not always shear resistant compared to the base oil which is a polymer but is far more shear resistant. defing harsh conditions? Now harsh conditions may bring up images of the Oil Sands in January or the Mojave desert in June. But actually how folks start their engines can have just as much damage. Contamination can do it as well.

Blackstone is a funny lab. They tend to paint various problems with a very broad brush. They are not at all active in STLE or ICML compared to other labs which is a red flag. They don't have the confidence of the major oil companies because they tend to simplify conditions and blame the oil. Frankly, only about 5% of any failure can be traced to the oil. If fact its most likely less then that.

It seems reasonable to say that cars need to be driven until hot, and not just driven for short stints before being put up. Blow by past the rings is what causes much contamination, and cold oil is not hot enough to cook out those contaminants.

Driving your garage queen down to pick up a newspaper a few times a week, or idling in the driveway isn't the way to go. Take a long drive, and your oil will distill out the water and fuel. When those vapors accumulate as liquid in your oil, that is when the interesting and fun things start to happen.

The tell take sign for many is the yellowish emulsion that forms on the filler cap. So drive your car, don't baby it.

Panorama just had an interesting story on an car with variocam that did not operate properly because the owner put in too heavy an oil. Once they changed back to the recommended weight the variocam worked. Turns out the small sliding pin couldn't move due to the high viscosity.

The point being, BMW probably knows a lot more about the needs of the engine. Seems odd to save money with oil changes. Unfortunately the owner clouded the warrentee story by not following the recommendations.

10w-60 does seem amazingly thick for a water cooled engine. Especially when Honda and the other makers of high revving engine specify 0w-20. It implies BMW expects the oil to get hot enough to need the capability of a 60 weight. That's really hot! In a water cooled engine?!?

For our air/oil cooled engine 10w-60 might be appropriate. But you better warm it up before flogging it. The oil cooling of the heads really pumps the heat in, as well as the piston crowns and cylinder walls.

So what I gather from this:

1)- shear is not by design, but a fault.

2)- Blackstone oversimplifies matters.

Next question: If oil is discovered as sheared- IE 5/30 to 20WT- does that mean change oil time?

rjp

Yes, and it's documented SOA kills you for using it. It's for Diesel Engines. They do not approve.


The NASIOC standard response to that is armchair legalese. In real life, you get stonewalled and a turndown for warranty claim. At the end of the day, it's on you.

Google.

rjp

Just to update this old thread. It took me a while to get this one apart. The customer is out of the country, and I knew the warranty company would stall my work, so I waited till I slowed down, and could afford to tie up a rack for a few weeks while the stroke me around .
They made me remove the motor, and pull it apart. It spun # 6 rod bearing, and tore up the crank pretty good. It was full of clean oil, and he had all records for past oil changes 2 within 10,000 miles to be exact. Both were non synthetic motor oil.
To my surprise, the warranty company approved the claim, and have shipped me a used engine to install . They will pay 100% of the labor, and the cost of the motor, minus the time I had in pulling the motor apart, and a few hours spent with an adjuster .
The owner of the car is stoked, and I was really surprised the warranty company took care of it .

Great. I hope the used engine is OK.

How does the used engine look? What kind of warranty is given on those?

I understand that he is going from one use engine to another, but that other one is a complete unknown.

All I can say, is they guy is low on funds, and this is what the warranty company offered . A new 3.0 From BMW is 19k. Owwieouch !!
I was going to try to sell him on replacing the rod bearings while it is out and on the stand, that is what I would do if it were my motor.
The new motor has similar miles, and is coming from LKQ . It is the only real option for repairing this car that is financially sound .

Replacing the rod bearings would be cheap insurance. Smart.

Will they let you keep the old motor? Any decent parts on it that will cover the unpaid time if you sell them?

Funny you should mention that. Yes, I get to keep the old motor. But it is the customers responsibility to pay for the diag time . I make sure they know that up front, and if the warranty company declines to authorize, they are still on the hook for removal, and teardown.
This customer is a great guy and paid me up front for his portion. He will most likely get some of his some money back if all goes smooth .
I don't know if there is a huge demand for low end parts from a modern BMW, the crank and one rod is junk. The rest look decent . I am sure the head , and valve train may be worth a few bucks

I don't believe in extending oil changes past 3500 miles, synths and minerals both break down at the same rate. Thinking one is better than the other is just silly, they do the same job. Now I would be nervous about recycled oil, that's just a personal belief of mine. You can go to the nitty gritty and follow the owners manual, that's ok. Of course its a Bimmer, and those things are ragged out by owners on a daily basis. I see bimmer ragging all the time, cutting me off to catch a green light, stupid pricks! LOL!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481899877.jpggood luck bro!

The local FCA dealer extends the factory drivetrain warranty to the life of the vehicle if they do the oil change and tire rotation. They change the oil every 6k miles on new cars. This is still long before the oil monitor would tell you to change the oil. Our truck is 7500 miles per the owners manual. I change that at 6k as well.

We have a VW dealer near Phoenix that does this. But they are pretty far out and it'd be a real headche to get there for this kind of routine maint. I wonder how this deal pencils out for them.

They are 11 miles from us and in the town where we get groceries and stuff so we are there often enough. The first few years they threw in oil change/rotation for free. The price on the car was in line with the others in the area so I am guessing they make a lot on the car after those free ones are done. $19.95 for tires and $14.99 for oil so $35 a pop every 6k miles is pretty good. We have $42k on the car now and have a few free ones left so if we keep the car for 100k miles they will get 50kish miles worth of oil changes. We keep cars a while so they might get 150k miles of for pay changes from us. That is what $875 or so?