Blown up BMW, wrong engine oil, whose fault?
 

A good customer of mine is sitting at my front door Monday morning when I pull in . His 2010 5 series is making noise, and he wants me to look at it.
I have him start it, and ugh. Really loud rod knock from #5, or 6. After a few foul words, he calms down, and realizes that he has an extended warranty . I call them up , and the first thing they ask for is receipts for recent oil changes .
He has them, but has not been using synthetic motor oil, and has gone approx 6 k between each oil change .
The local quick lube guy stops down to my shop in a panic, fearing that it is his fault. I guess he told John ( BMW) owner that he would be fine using conventional oil , as long as he shortened his oil change intervals .
Do I honestly think that this caused the bearing failure? doubtful, but I can guarantee that the warranty company will deny the claim based on this information .
What do you guys think about this one ?

What was the cause? Crack it open and see. If you can find a part failure that is not lubrication related you might have a chance at getting them to cover it. He's at their mercy. Normally, negligence or abuse like wrong oil = voided warranty. Back in teh 80's Volvo would void your new car warranty if you didn't use their oil filter.

I have to wonder if the lube guy did something else that was stupid like not change the filter?

When I used to visit the TDI forums I recall this happening to a Jetta owner. He had all the receipts in order. He took his car to the dealer for service at all the required intervals. VW turned down his claim because the dealer didn't use the required oil.

I would think the devil will be in the details of the warranty. If it calls for factory oil recommendation and interval and that oil should have been synthetic, I would think he is screwed.

I agree with the above that he is likely screwed. In my mind to qualify for a warranty claim you have to follow the guidelines of servicing. It is not rocket science for the owner to read the requirements re servicing. Living proof that common sense is not common.....:confused:

Isn't that the problem with extended warranties? You have to follow their requirements chapter and verse or they won't cover you.
Way back in '94 I bought a used C280. My wife at the time insisted on buying the warranty. At about 10K over the factory warranty it blew a head gasket. The ext warranty co. denied the claim for some bogus reason - I think it was oil change records. MBNA covered the job for us.

I think the warranty co. denied the claim because they have nothing to lose. Their business model is to take your money and deny your claims.

MBNA didn't want a dissatisfied customer bad-mouthing their cars. Their business model is to maintain their reputations and get repeat business.

Here is my take on this...

The engineering team that designed the engine specified a particular oil for a reason. There is no monetary incentive for them to spec synthetic over Dino oils or 5:20 over 15:40.

If a oil change guy thinks he knows something about the engine and oils that the BMW engineers didn't and told his customer to use a different oil, this is partly on him. The customer is also partially to blame for allowing the oil change guy to use the wrong product.

Ha!
i remember talking to a Porsche factory rep back in the early 60s. Somebody in the group asked if it was OK to use detergent oil (or multi viscosity or something - let's say it was detergent). The German service rep said very sternly, "If vee vanted you to use detergent oils, vee vould have specified detergent oils."

I have a 2011 535 and I'm sure I remember receiving the warranty package requiring synthetic oil at specific intervals. The oil change shop guy learned a hard lesson that you don't promise anything about someone else's product without the manufacturer's approval. He should have just referred the customer to BMW and told him to follow whatever they said.

The decision to take the risk and use dino oil makes no sense. It was a $50,000 car new, and is still worth $25,000. Why would the owner put his entire investment at risk for saving the price difference between dino and synthetic oil - a savings that was probably completely negated by shorter changing intervals?

Having said all of this, I can offer the oil shop guy some words of comfort. His shop insurance will cover the loss with no deductible to the car owner. His insurance will not increase significantly because of a claim of this size. We all make mistakes. This is what insurance is for.

Using dino oil in a tight tolerance, newer BMW doesn't seem real smart. The synthetic oil gets into smaller gaps than the dino stuff, and lubricates better, and keeps cooler. We still use the expensive Castrol 5W 30 synthetic in my wife's 2003 BMW 325CI.

It has been my experience that the warranty company will not cover the claim based on this information alone. They are ruthless, and do their homework on big claims .
I am hesitant to submit the receipts . I Hate dealing with warranty companies. On something like this they will tie my lift up for two weeks, and use every tactic they have at their disposal to deny the claim. They will want me to tear down the motor to see how and why it failed, but we all know, that they will only be putting a used engine with similar mileage they they source so, there is no possible way I can make a dollar on it . They make me do this for every one I do, but never come out to verify for themselves

Why anyone would service or operate an under warranty vehicle outside of the factory specifications is beyond me. In doing so, one assumes all responsibility. It's just that simple. If you expect someone else to assume responsibility in the event of a failure, you absolutely must follow their recommendations or you don't have a leg to stand on. This one is entirely on the owner. If he wants to pursue a warranty claim, and if that means you have to tear the thing down, he needs to pay your hourly rate. This should in no way turn into any kind of a burden to you.

Yeah, unless you sold the warranty, its unfair of the customer to burden you, the deal should be that either the warranty co pays you a fair rate (they won't) or the customer pays you for all of your time in pursuing the claim. I know that the reality of customer relationships doesn't allow this, but its no wonder indy guys get out all of the time.

Fred, it's not your job to pursue warranty claims for your customer. You give them an estimate for the cost of repairs and a letter saying what caused the damage. You give that to the customer and tell them it will cost $XXX to fix the car. They owe it whether its covered by warranty or not, and they are responsible for pursing coverage. You should not put yourself in between the customer and the warranty company. That's something the customer should be spending his time and energy doing.

Im suprised BMW doesent spec some proprietary expensive oil, so you are locked into the dealer. Im a bit confused by the economics of your customers decision to go with conventional oil, use a quick lube place, and do more frequent changes. It seems a bit bizarre in the context of somebody risk adverse enough to buy an extended warranty. He couldnt have saved more than 30-40$ per oil change right.


I basically assume all purchased warranty options are scams, but everytime I bad mouth them sombody gives me an example of how they did well with one. When I bought my house I went to alot of trouble to have the contract rewritten so that they wouldn't purchase the home warranty for the sale.

Some BMW cars do. There is a 0-80 synthetic I recall...although I think the packaging does not state the viscosity.

All of the above are correct. The false economy of using the wrong oil, (or fuel/oil/air filter, etc.), has always baffled me. Even if the vehicle is only worth a few thousand dollars, it's dumb. It's an expensive lump of machinery.

I own a VW TDI and VW will absolutely deny warrantee claims if you cannot prove that you used the correct, (specified), oil. It has a spec, (502.1 I think), that is specified everywhere in literature, online, under the hood, etc.

Unlike Sammy, I generally sympathize w anyone who has bad fortune in life but this guy learned an expensive, easily avoided lesson. The oil change place needs to change their protocol and train their people on this issue.

It's hard to believe an engine would fail if the correct viscosity was used on a timely basis, unless there's a rating or additive issue. Who sold the warranty and what company is it?

Was the lesson not to buy extended warranties or to use synthetic oil?

Having a hard time believing Dino is goin to cause a knock. I'm guessing it ran low on oil.

Is this car tracked/auto crossed?

But he can put all the money he saved on oil changes towards the cost of the new engine, so it should come out ok.

I think if the car was designed to use only synthetic oil, then that is what should be used.

I once had kind of the revers problem with a 75 Toyota Corrolla. When Mobil One synthetic came out I started using that. The timing chain eventually failed. I was told that the chain tension device relied on oil pressure to provide the proper tension. The overall oil pressure was reduced by the synthetic causing slack in the timing chain. I replaced it all and went back to Dino and put another150,000 miles on it without a problem. Don't know if all that was really the problem but it made sense to me.

I bought a 5 year extended warranty from Ford for the Mustang. Never needed it. Have used mobil one 5-20 instead of the suggested motocraft synthetic blend in the same weight. Again, no problems...have had the dealership do the service. Why not? $24 for oil & filter plus tire rotate.

So..to the point. Service manager told me I could use any major brand oil I wished, even dino oil, as long as it was 5-20. The warranty doesn't specify brand. I don't know that I'd want to buy any car that has a warranty requirement for a specific brand of oil.

I was under the impression that an extended warranty from the car maker was generally good. But those issued by private insurance are not that good.

Both but it's not to use/not use synthetic or any certain oil, it's to use what is specified. It's seriously simple, there aren't even any other decisions to be made. Just use what it says. :cool:

Just to clarify, even VW with their super strict oil requirements does not require a certain brand, only that it meets a spec. If the oil container says 502.1 on it somewhere and is the correct weight, you're good to go.

I quite simply do not believe that there is enough of a difference between synthetic, which is just modified dyno oil, and regular dyno oil to precipitate this catastrophic failure.

An extended warranty is essentially an insurance policy. Insurance companies are not in the business of paying claims. They exist to collect premiums and find ways not to pay on claims. No way do they pay on this, despite the fact that it is incumbent on them proving that his failure to use synthetic oil was the cause of this. They guy at the oil change shop is who the owner will end up giving the stink eye.

I was kind of thinking the same. More wear and tear? Possibly. But catastrophic failure? Not sure.

Unless he drives the thing hard and the Dino oil broke down enough to decrease the pressure significantly.

If I went too long with Brad Penn even if I had proper oil levels I'd know I needed a change by the pressure.

You have to remember that oil does three things basically and those are: reduce friction between two surfaces such as between connecting rod and main bearings, next is absorb shock such as when the brank shaft reaches bottom center and the rod needs to stop and then go up and finally absorb heat from the two surfaces and the closer they are then the more heat is generated and it needs cooling some how! VW or other car companies are smart when they list a spec(s) for the oil and possibly also the weight range. Example is my Chevy HHR 2.4 engine which lists some specs and also 5 - 20 weight synthetic only. The first time I changed the oil I wrote the specs and read the oil containers info and not all met the requirements. One that did that really surprised me was the Walmart store brand which is recycled I was told?

Depending on who made the oil decision, then the load is on their shoulders and I hope it was not you!

I don't want to drag this way off topic but let me add 3 slightly off topic points...

1. The correct oil DOES make a difference. I used to have a Dodge diesel with the Cummins and a Getrag 360 transmission. These transmissions were notorious for packing in (the main shaft bearing in the input shaft would get starved for lube if you ran gear oil in them like EVERYONE did). The key to making these things last was to run 5:30 synthetic motor oil or Dextron II in them an overfill them by a quart.

I keep this thing around...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1470261823.jpg

2. With respect to extended warranties, I bought the 7 year / 200,000 km warranty for my Tundra when I bought it new. These are a bargaining chip because they have big markup - it cost me $1500. It didnt cover everything but it did cover a few park assist sensors at $600 a pop, a front end rebuild at 198,000 kms, and the replacement of the steering rack, upper and lower columns, power steering pump, pressure switch all for a misdiagnosed steering U-Joint at 195,000 kms...

3. Not all Synthetic oils are modified dino oils - this is Castrol Syntec. Some, such as Pennzoil Paltinum Pure Plus are made from Natural Gas and were never dino oil. I run this stuff in my daily drivers and something has caused the mileage to improve slightly in the Tundra since I started using it there over the past year (I cant believe it can be oil alone). With Mobil 1, it would be rattly on startup just before an oil change at 7500 - 8000 kms but is not with the Pennzoil.

My God, the Subaru fans all think they are smarter than the guys in Japan who engineered the stuff. Manual says 5w30? Phooey!-)

Pimp Dawg the Flat-Brimmed Bro Tuner in NASIOC (the forum) says 20/50 cuz, racecar. The lemmings put in 20/50 - tune it to detonation, and get mad when it breaks- it's NEVER the tuner's fault. :rolleyes:

If they can alter it, they will. You should see the Voodoo and Old Wive's tales those guys swear by..

rjp

As long as the oil meets BMW specs that's all that matters.

BMW Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org

More of this Dodge tranny issue - the lubrication slot for this wasnt exactly small but it was restrictive enough that viscous oils couldn't get the the earing in sufficient quantities for lubrication and cooling.

That pitting was crazy.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1470264218.jpg

I'm thinking it was: Don't use the local "quick lube" for your high-dollar Bee Emm Dubya. :D

I'd say you open yourself up to a much higher probability of (potential warranty-voiding) mistakes by doing so IMO.
Wrong oil (dino vs. syn, wrong weight, etc.), wrong oil level, wrong filter, no filter change at all, no drain plug washer, loose drain plug, wrong drain plug torque, stripped drain plug/bung threads, etc...

Factory warranty = No brainer, take it to the dealer.

Aftermarket warranty = Read the fine print, and take it to the dealer, or if allowed, a reputable marque-specific indy shop for service, at the specified intervals.

Granted, the same mistakes can happen at the dealer or indy shop, but I'd say the chances are much lower than at most "quick lube" joints.
In theory, the techs are better trained/more experienced, and they know the cars in question much better. The concern over using the correct oil and/or filters is largely mitigated, as is the use of improper tools/methods/etc.. YMMV...

Fred - my experience with BMW engines, especially the Valve-Tronics of that era are very very durable. I would not automatically assume or go straight to the use of improper oil.

Something or someone caused that engine to fail..........................................my opinion.

Example: A few years back when I worked for an indy BMW dealer, they sold a nice low mileage M3 that came back on the hook later with a rod hanging out of the side. New owner was irate, said we sold him pile of s**t. It did have the remaining factory warranty on it.

Before we made any assumptions, we scanned the ECM recent memory with the BMW scan tool and found the engine RPM's were @9200+ before engine failure. Well something or someone caused the engine to go well beyond the rev limiter.........................................li ke a missed shift into say 1st gear when red-line power-shifting to 3rd.

We printed that info out and the service writer confronted him.............................................he finally admitted that's exactly what happened......................

Beat me to it. I was just about to edit my post when I saw yours. Anyway, good call.

I'd check it for over-revs. Should tell you RPMs as well as the total number of incidents.

BTW you're only going to find that information with the BMW factory scan tool or an Autologic..............

That is absolutely not the issue here. No way the motor failed because of the different oil that was used. We all know that. So does the underwriter on the extended warranty.

All they have to prove is that he did not use the specified oil. No judge or jury in a civil case will ever delve into this beyond that. The underwriter will simply seek to pack a jury with soccer moms and poindexters who have no idea. "Wrong" oil? Case closed.

I run Rotella T6 in my WRX, and it is within spec for the range of oils specified. There are a lot of reasons why I use it. So do a lot of Corvette guys.

The point is, the oil in my WRX is not below specification. The oil in the BMW might be, and yes, that can be a problem.

By the way, I had a tune done on my WRX because the stock tune on certain model years is known to run lean. There are some very knowledgeable people on NASIOC, and some very well documented threads that baseline information. I know some of them as professionals, and I trust their judgement. I'm not sure what your qualifications are to judge them. I personally trust them a whole lot more than some guy at Jiffy Lube, if you see what I am saying.

Fudge, I lost internet all day at work , I had to actually do work the whole day without logging in here. It was awful, I would not recommend trying it .
I kind of agree with you Ashpalt . Something seemed off with the oil change guy, I am wondering if he put in 5 quarts and ran it . The information center did show the oil as full however when I checked.
John is an older guy, the car is an auto, I really doubt there was an over rev, but you never know .....
You probably see a lot more of them then I do, but I also never see engine failures on these series cars . Especially lower end This is a loud , nasty good old fashioned rod knock.
He came by tonight to give me printouts of the oil change history from the quick lube. I had also done one, and another was done at the dealer . So we have the last 4 . Hopefully they don't dig too deep into the receipts . He told me to just submit them and let the cards fall where they may .

The dealer who sold the warranty has more leverage than anybody to get the warranty company to pay on the claim. The warranty company doesn't want to lose the dealer's business. One could make the argument that the non-synthetic oil every 6K is irrelevant. Customer was stupid, no doubt of that, as well as the Jiffy Jerk.