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-   -   Invasive species... What about invasive societies? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/924162-invasive-species-what-about-invasive-societies.html)

Crowbob 08-05-2016 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by intakexhaust (Post 9227681)
The asian carp crisis pisses me off. This is a detriment in cost and the possibility of destroying sport fishing in the Great Lakes. ALL BECAUSE SOME IDIOT expert from the DNR. Worse, now they want to introduce and farm alligator gar to go after the asian carp. They underestimated the volume of those carp. Its a bad scenario.

Also, in Illinois, the DNR are pyromaniacs. They light up the 'natural' prairies and forest to control weeds and promote new growth. Done in the Spring when thousands of critters and rare species of birds are nesting. Idiots. BTW: Whats that about promoting clean air?
A few things, here. My understanding is the carp were accidentally introduced, that the gar is a native species and that controlled burns are an effort to restore a natural process that has been suppressed over the years. Enormous regions of prairie were burned to black ash periodically over the eons. Most forms of prairie grasses actually require they be periodically decimated completely from the soil level up in order to thrive: No grasslands equals no birdies.

Crowbob 08-05-2016 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel (Post 9227677)
My main concern is that the new invaders will not be taxpayers and will only contribute to the creation of more debt, without the ability to repay even a small portion of it. That would push the Ponzi scheme over the edge and make the economy implode, wouldn't it?
This presents an interesting paradox. The elites keep getting richer while everybody else's struggles to survive intensify. By their stations in life, the elites are insulated from the realities of the desperation that spurs migration. And, because the elites benefit from the hard work and law-abiding tax-paying masses, they do not see the disconnect inherent in the importation of unskilled, desperate people lured by entitlements while at the same time expecting them to be passive workers.

Martial law will eventually ensue. But to the elites, that's OK, too.

black73 08-05-2016 03:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoRush993/951 (Post 9227662)
A nation state without a common culture and nationalistic identity will never sustain itself. Study history and name one that prospered. They all fail. Every one.
The U.S. of A. since 1776! Diversity is our strength. Always has been, always will be.SmileWavy

Crowbob 08-05-2016 03:14 AM
The clincher relevant to the OP to follow. But for now, an addendum to the naturalist sports fishers of the Great Lakes ecosystem:

Some southern fishers know this already but to those who don't try to imagine an extremely agile, armor-plated, long-lived, powerful and enormous, air-breathing behemoth with alligator teeth that acts like a Northern Pike.

Crowbob 08-05-2016 03:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by black73 (Post 9227833)
The U.S. of A. since 1776! Diversity is our strength. Always has been, always will be.SmileWavy
Only by examining the premise and finding it false, the rest of the post rises almost to idiocy.

berettafan 08-05-2016 04:14 AM
No kidding. Talk about attempting to rewrite history.

Crowbob 08-05-2016 04:28 AM
I see the spark of optimism in the brilliance of the OP and subsequent discussion it has spawned.

Crowbob 08-05-2016 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldE (Post 9226592)
I think you are ignoring history. All societies evolve or die and are supplanted by new ones. Don't you suppose Britains were saying the same things about the Angles and the Saxons when they were moving onto the island ?
We tend to get caught up in the idea the way things are now are the way they always will be. That's likely what the Spanish were thinking when they owned Florida, Texas and California.

Best
Les
Pretty Good point.

However, I reject the nihilism inherent in suggesting that because all societies have evolved, died and been supplanted means they always will. Some would even say must.

The world was presented a radical change and a golden opportunity provided it by The Declaration and The Constitution. If more people would recognize that, we may just be able to hang on to the enormously successful blip in all of history that is worth continuing.

wayner 08-05-2016 05:03 AM
1) America is a continent not a country. Canadians and Mexicans are also Americans (North) as are Peruvians ( South)

2) The USA has always been known around the world as "The Great Melting Pot"
(No single heritage) and the land of opportunity

Crowbob 08-05-2016 05:09 AM
The 'melting pot' metaphor is a beautiful thing.

Throw enough rocks into that simmering pot and cause it to spill over the sides and the stew to evaporate is what we are doing.

tevake 08-05-2016 06:39 AM
^^ Interesting comment Crowbob.
Ties in with my thinking that a lot of the issues at play are the result of over population stress.
But then these same factions have been at it for hundreds of years, long before people became so numerous.

Cheers Richard

intakexhaust 08-05-2016 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowbob (Post 9227795)
A few things, here. My understanding is the carp were accidentally introduced, that the gar is a native species and that controlled burns are an effort to restore a natural process that has been suppressed over the years. Enormous regions of prairie were burned to black ash periodically over the eons. Most forms of prairie grasses actually require they be periodically decimated completely from the soil level up in order to thrive: No grasslands equals no birdies.
The asian carp was no accident. It was idiotically introduced and furthermore escaped, no one at the time bothered to reign them in. Now a major problem. I even recall some years ago while at a fishing convention talking to the DNR at a booth. They acted as if they didn't know anything about it. Laughable but they chose to remain ignorant.

Next, the fires. Illinois DNR up north was flaming every Spring. Nothing like toasted sandhill crane nest. Adding to the humor, they burn the acres yet strictly enforce hiking only on the trails and no picking of plants. :rolleyes:

wdfifteen 08-05-2016 06:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tabs (Post 9226808)
Yes it was Western Civilization that put a man on the moon. Yes it is Western Civilization that brought you democracy. Islam is diametrically opposed to those western values especially of separation of church and state. You would not be able to speak your apostasy about Islam as you just have about Western culture. You would not even have a PC to spew your anti Western blasphemy of self loathing as this Board would not even exist.
You seem to be making a case that invasive culture isn't a bad thing. I mean, Europeans invaded North American and replaced native American culture with Christianity, a written language, democracy, and, (as you point out) moon walking. What's wrong with that?

Crowbob 08-05-2016 07:00 AM
Hmm. Very interesting info from zavodnia.

I guess my thinking the carp were introduced accidentally was wishful at best. Especially considering the DNR response to it.

In addition to helping deflate my beautiful balloon is the new knowledge that the burns are occurring annually. In nature, once or twice a generation seems to suffice.

Enforcement of anti-compaction of the soil and the reduction of wanton culling of native botanical species is a good thing.

Plus, alligator gar will keep the squeamish out of the water. A good thing, no?

scottmandue 08-05-2016 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tabs (Post 9226808)
Yes it is Western Civilization that brought you democracy.
Um, the Greeks bough us democracy in the 5th century BC.

wdfifteen 08-05-2016 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottmandue (Post 9228593)
Um, the Greeks bough us democracy in the 5th century BC.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1470426816.jpg

john70t 08-05-2016 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm K (Post 9226886)
As he had a knack of doing, Winston Churchill laid it out pretty well ...
I get a little bit of a kick out of Churchill morality references.
A failed two-bit player rising up through the ranks at an opportune crisis.

The sun 'never set on the British empire'.
Along with Spain, Portugal, Dutch, and France they already 'took over the world'.
Germany/Japan wasn't invited to the party and Italy already had it's time in the limelight.

john70t 08-05-2016 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottmandue (Post 9228593)
Um, the Greeks bough us democracy in the 5th century BC.
Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi and Genghis Khan's Code of Laws for laws.

Greek democracy was not what we have today.
It was based on military control of outcropping subject-states with remote plantation landlordship and taxation.
Only men could vote, and only those who served or met criteria.
So final representation of law was limited to those few elite.
(well ok, maybe it was what we have today)

1990C4S 08-05-2016 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wayner (Post 9227923)
The USA has always been known around the world as "The Great Melting Pot"
(No single heritage) and the land of opportunity
That works when all nationalities, races, and religions get in the pot, or partially into the pot. When large segments decide they want their own pot, their own rules and rights, that's a big problem.

manbridge 74 08-05-2016 01:15 PM
There should be no respect, tolerance or compassion for any society rooted in violence and indiscriminate murder.


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