Every Time I Get Lazy...

Jeff Higgins · 08-14-2016, 03:13 PM

I wind up paying for it.

My Honda XR650L has been smoking for some time. I've lived with because, well, I'm lazy. That, and too many other projects pushing it to the back of the line. Besides, it still ran like a champ. I finally decided I was just never going to get to it, and I was going out of town on a short trip, so I would just drop it off at the Honda shop before I left and pick it up when I got back. Big, big, mistake...

I told them just to re-ring it and put new guides in it, the two "usual suspects" for its errant behavior. If anything looked out of sorts, of course, let me know and we will sort it when I get home.

Low and behold, after they tear down the top end and inspect everything, they decide everything in it is worn completely out of spec, wear surfaces are "deeply scored and cracked", and on and on. They tell me it clearly ran out of oil at some point. It needs everything from the crank on up... to the tune of $4,000. *Sigh*

I went in and picked it up (in boxes) last weekend. I went through everything and, in all honesty, have seen very few motors so clean and completely devoid of any sort of measurable wear. The cylinder is absolutely round with no taper and still shows the crosshatching. The cam and rocker surfaces are well polished, as they get, but there is no wear whatsoever. They told me it needed a new crank based upon no more than the "wear" in the small end of the rod. They never split the cases.

I dropped the head and cylinder at a local machine shop last Monday. They called and asked later in the week "what do you want us to do with this stuff again? It all looks brand new..." I told them to just hone the cylinder so my new rings bite, and to replace the guides with my new Kibblewhite set.

I'm putting a JE piston in it and the Kibblewhite guides. Two problem areas are notorious on the big XR - rings that fail early and a rubber o-ring under the shoulder on the guides that leaks. I'm just addressing those two issues and putting it back together. It only has 12,000 miles on it, mostly on the street (unfortunately, but that's another story).

I'm not sure what they thought they were looking at, or perhaps, whether this was a case of incompetence or dishonesty. It absolutely has to be one or the other; I know I won't deal with either. I also have to wonder how many customers just say "oh, o.k." without having any idea.

I feel like doing a big ass wheelie right through the Honda showroom once it's back together...

id10t · 08-14-2016, 03:24 PM

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence...

But it would be a LONG time before I went back to that place for anything..

ckelly78z · 08-14-2016, 03:37 PM

Never trust a dealership, they're well known motto is "upsell". You are one of the 5% of owners who would box it up after being torn down, and take it home to do yourself. Most people would just say "bummer" and write a big check. Good on you !

Jeff Higgins · 08-14-2016, 03:52 PM

I've been buying parts there for as long as I have had this bike. Their parts guys are friendly, knowledgable, and extremely helpful. Great bunch of guys. Prices are as good as I can find, and they are on the way home from work. I'll continue to buy parts from them.

I got the impression their mechanics must be no more than tire and brake pad changers. Maybe spark plugs too, if they have been there awhile. I wish they would have just told me up front that this was a bit more than they normally do. They had the bike torn down before they told me they cannot bore cylinders, and no relationship with a machine shop that could (if it needed it). They just replace them. They can't replace and ream guides, either, nor grind valves. They just replace the whole head. I was not made aware of these limitations before I dropped it off. Just a simple top end job on an air-cooled single - what could be easier? I guess all they can do is swap parts.

Before anyone asks, I won't say who this is. I really hate these "complain about the shop" threads, wherein guys try to warn everyone off a shop that "did them wrong". I won't do that. I'm sure these guys do a great job at servicing their customer base. In fact, they have a pretty darn good reputation. I think they just bit off more than they could chew.

The bright side is, they did the nasty part - they cleaned it all up and tore it down for me. They gave me back all of the parts very neatly organized and separated by assembly (rocker box, head, piston and cylinder, induction, exhaust, bodywork, etc.) in their own boxes and plastic bags in those boxes. Only cost me a hundred bucks for them to get that far, so that isn't bad.

wayner · 08-14-2016, 03:56 PM

Is this a case of how to sell new motorcycles to old cycle dudes?

Jeff Higgins · 08-14-2016, 04:01 PM

Heh heh... they did mention they had an '08 or '09 trade-in that was in "near new" condition that they could sell me for "not much more". I told them as much as I love my "Big Red Pig" (as they are known in dirt bike circles), that I certainly would not be looking at them if I were to be buying a new (or newer) bike. But, yeah, it did come up.

Jeff Higgins · 09-27-2016, 07:16 PM

Well, this one's a wrap. I brought the cylinder and head down to one of my favorite machine shops and had them hone the cylinder and put my new Kibblewhite guides in the head. A new JE 10:1 compression piston arrived while I was waiting for the machine shop to finish, as did a new Acerbis 5.5 gallon tank. I got the parts back from the shop last week and put it all back together last Sunday. Total outlay, including a new top end gasket kit, was less than $400 for the motor work (and about $250 for the tank, which wasn't a part of the original scope).

In spite of the dire warnings from the motorcycle shop that tore it down and inspected it, it runs like a top, with no funny noises at all. Noticeably more poop with the higher compression to boot. Enough more, in fact, to do a big ol' tire roasting burnout in front of their roll-up door while flipping them off... just kidding, but seriously, when I think back to their prognosis and what they tried to soak me for... maybe just a little burnout... just to let 'em know it runs...

Por_sha911 · Por_sha911's Garage

Send them a link to this thread and be sure their name is somewhere.

Let them see what it cost them in bad publicity.

Bill Douglas · 09-27-2016, 07:42 PM

I'm pleased it's worked out well.

Your youtube of a trail ride a while back of the big red pig inspired me to buy my XR400R - which I love.

fastfredracing · 09-28-2016, 03:42 AM

I am sorry to hear that it now runs good. I was hoping to low ball you and take that rusty bucket of bolts off your hands .
All kidding aside, how do you like the big thumper ? I am on the prowl for a dual sport. I really plan on more off road than on road, so I was leaning more towards a 250, or 350, but am also considering the big bike . Seems to be more of them available
I used to ride with an older guy who had a big xr, and despite the bikes size, and weight, he was still pretty fast through the woods .

Jeff Higgins · 09-28-2016, 06:47 AM

Fred, I think Bill made a better choice for a more trail oriented bike with his XR400. There is no getting around the fact that the 650L is a big bike. I bought it because I did not want to trailer it, and most of our good riding is a pretty fair highway or freeway journey from my place. I figured the 650 would do better for that (and it certainly does), but it gives up so much as a true trail bike that I'm not sure it's worth it. It's a great logging road, fire road, desert kind of bike, but it's almost unmanageable on any true "trail". Granted, far better dirt bike riders than myself (like our own Lake Cle Ellum) can really scoot these "big red pigs" through the tight stuff, guys of average or less ability, like myself, quickly get overwhelmed by the weight.

scottmandue · 09-28-2016, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I feel like doing a big ass wheelie right through the Honda showroom once it's back together...

Pics or it didn't happen!

RE: Mostly street driving, I had a XL500 and being a city boy it saw mostly street use... ironic because I bought it to concur a few dirt trail/steep hills that my little 175 could not handle (the 500 did take those hills... with ease).

That 500 had so much torque I can't imagine why they added 150CC... but I would jump on a 650 if I had the chance.

Jeff Higgins · 10-01-2016, 06:34 PM

I would love to do that, Joel. Walker Valley is closest to me, but I wouldn't mind trying some of the other places down south. Walker gets pretty tight for my "Big Red Pig" and its unskilled operator...

So, I spent the week breaking it in on some short local jaunts. Today was its big day - its first trip to the woods. I went up and tried to ride over Rat Trap Pass, up east of Darrington, only to find it had washed out. I did ride Barlow Pass and a bunch of the roads around there, though, so it was a pretty good day.

Bill Douglas · 10-01-2016, 07:24 PM

It's got that lovely Honda sound to it. Good skills not getting ripped off by the Honda dealership.

LakeCleElum · 08:13 PM

Short answer: Buy mine: *** 1994 Honda XR650L ***

Best Internet answer:

Too much oil in these is nearly as bad as too little. If you are in doubt of oil level at cold startup you should just drain the oil from the engine and refill it back into the tank. Reason for that is if you attempt a cold start with all the oil drained from the tank into the crankcase less air volume is available in the engine for pumping of the single cylinder raising crankcase pressure and blowing oil past the rings and guides. It also creates excess drag on the crankshaft making starting difficult or impossible. The oil pumps are well known for allowing the oil to drain back into the crankcase. Always check oil after a few minutes of running. Checking cold frequently leads to adding another half quart of oil only to increase crankcase pressure and cause more blowby. I've "repaired" dozens of XR/XRLs that wouldn't start by doing this and nothing else. Blowby is a logarithmic function; the worse it gets the faster it gets worse. And again it's not o rings it's piston rings that are the primary cause of oil consumption. I used 20-50 in the older XLs with good results but they had simple crankcase vents dumping the blowby oil on the ground/chain. 600/650s like 10-30 much better as it allows the oil scraper rings to clear excess oil much better and still lube the rings.

My Experience with 2 of these over 15 years: Jeff, I think I told you about checking the oil strainer at the bottom of the frame tube? Had them plugged up and starve the engine of oil.

My 1st XR650L was a basket case owned by a Moto Journalist that put over 45,000 miles on it in Europe when in the Military. I got it cheap and rode it another 10 yrs.....The Hi-compression piston is the best mod you can make....I could pick up my front wheel at will on the trails in 1st/2nd gear.

Smoking: My 1st one did it a lot, this one on rare occasion. My best guess: It's a dry sump engine like an old 911.....A leaking check valve allows extra oil into the engine when it sits for awhile......That extra oil gets into the combustion chamber upon startup and it smokes awhile........My 1st one had a very tired engine that seized several times due to the oil stare deal........Even in very poor shape, it never smoked after startup........I made it home once on the trails the last 50 miles where the engine would seize on long up hill pulls.......Used the kill switch and coasted a lot, but it got me home.......Good luck Jeff.

sugarwood · sugarwood's Garage

I'll never for the life of me understand why people protect the very crooks that tried to screw them over.
He was told every part was damaged and needed replacing. He found out otherwise, when he got a 2nd opinion.
Conclusion? "They bit off more than they can chew". !??!

Gogar · 10-02-2016, 07:55 AM

Higgy baby there's a few words I would use to describe you

But I don't really think "Lazy" is one.

Jeff Higgins · 10-02-2016, 04:40 PM

Heh heh - Lori-Jo says she gets tired just watching me "relax" on a weekend...

Bob, I've been following your advice on that oil strainer and cleaning it on every oil change. It's a habit I got into on my 900 Super Sport, which has similar issues with clogged strainers. Bad news on either one.

I've been checking my oil the same way as we check it on our 911's, with the motor warmed up and idling. It does kind of spit out the cap, but other than that it seems to work. My shop manual says to put one quart in it, start it up, and keep adding until it reaches the "full" mark on the dipstick. It never mentions shutting it off for this. Guys on Thumper Talk argue which is correct - running or not, with the "not" crowd saying that no one checks oil on a running motor - that would be "silly".

Jeff Higgins · 10-02-2016, 06:48 PM

Joel, the perimeter of Walker Valley is entirely doable on a bike like mine by a guy like me. Get down into the bowels of it, though, and the story changes entirely. There is a reason half the bikes in the parking lot these days are trials bikes. A run up something like Pat's Trail would demonstrate why that is.

Just let me know when you get a free day, or a new bike, or whatever - check out Bob's bike, buy it, and let's go... Maybe even over to Bob's, if it hasn't snowed up high by then.