I love animals as much as anyone but don't believe in pits as household pets. You can't have a lion as a house cat, so why a pit? Yeah other dogs can bite but they don't crush your bones in the process. The statistics on the breed speak for themselves.

With that said, I don't think hunting a loose pit in the suburbs with a suppressed AR-15 is the answer. Where I live that would get you arrested and showcased on the evening news. Unless it attacks or threatens, hounding the police daily to make them take action is kind of the only legal recourse.

So clearly it should be illegal to own a pit bull type dog and they should all be destroyed.

What other breeds should receive the same treatment?

Thousands of years, really?

Yes.

PB's need not inhabit this earth.

I had a Doberman from a pup. He apparently thought he was Beta. When I wasn't around he could not be contained. On the second to last day of his life, my wife answered the door and the dog attacked. No serious injuries as he was tethered to the hallway inside the door through which the visitor entered ignoring my wife's order not to enter.

I'm sure he was just protecting his 'family' as they are bred to do. PB's are bred to kill.

as long as were out culling the hood..
let's get rid of the 2 legged pits first..
upside..
these are the folks that give the pits their reputation..

Rika

Times eleventy billion...

I disagree with Jeff in ONLY one aspect of his assessment...I don't stereotype and say ALL pit bulls...but a large percentage have the aggressive streak from generations of selectively breeding the ones that show it....over and over. Then you get what we have...a problem :(. To deny this is utter stupidity imo....and flat out dangerous to think it's the current "aggressive dog's" owner....I KNOW better. Any animal that "turns on me" will be dealt with humanely....no matter the breed....I'll hold them in my arms and shed some tears as I have them put down....but I will....

Problem with Pit Bulls now....you simply don't know what you're taking home at 8 weeks old...

Baz...your compassion and love of dogs is well known here....but you are not alone my friend. Jeff loves them, I love them, and rest assured my friend that has put several down (one pure, and several offspring) loves them too. It's heartbreaking....but it is so. SOME simply can't be trusted in society...and if one doesn't have what it takes to do the right thing, then please don't ever get a PB.

My best friends growing up had a couple of Chows (similar imo)...their parents were deaf, so it was OK in my mind....protected their turf with a vengence....for years. Until one day a 7 year old turned on the dad who fed him daily....messed him up pretty bad :(. Dog was put down...

But no one is gonna change their mind via Internet posts....experience what my friends and I have a few times, and you just might however. And believe me, we know dawgs :)

I'm outta this thread....rationally.

those are the folks that accent the reputation and enjoy it. but the breeds rep was earned regardless of hood rats.

true....

just spent 2 weeks with some Cane Presas..
found it's difficult to kick them of the bed..
as my foot easily fits in their mouth..
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1508878592.jpg

would have taken both in a minute..

Right on, Rika!

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Baz - I echo Jeff on this topic. Being a land surveyor I run into dogs all the time and nothing, nothing strikes fear in me like when I encounter a Pit Bull.

The kid that worked for me was like you, preaching the misunderstood breed gospel since he owned 3 of them with his mom.

Yet, the moment we encountered one in the field, he was the first into the truck.

For every cute video you post, I can post 10 of a pit unprovoked killing and tearing apart a family pet.

Live Leak is full of them and I started to compile some a couple of hours ago, got sick to my stomach looking at them and decided it be best not to share.

No amount of video's of the cute ones will ever change my opinion of them. Even that little girl in the kitchen with them. All I see is a ticking time bomb.


You come across on here a super chill and awesome dude, so my disagreement is in no means posted in an effort to offend you.

Just like my co-worker, I disagreed with him on the subject, I cannot understand how anyone would want such a dangerous animal in their house.

We lost our Choc Lab about 3 years ago. About a year ago we decided to go get a rescue dog. We had one that was psycho and had to give it back, it was a small dog and really sweet but there was something wrong with it and it would trigger and attack but myself and my 12 year old son.

It was gone as soon as it went for my son, if there was no kid in the house we may have tried to rehab it, but there was no way we were taking a chance.

We now have the sweetest rescue ever and if I had to witness a loose pit get hold of it, I would lose my mind. Seeing those Live Leak pit videos broke my heart, I cannot fathom being a dog owner and having to fight a pit off my dog.

I pray I never have to.

Not sure why you are saying all that to me, Jim. I agree....humans need to do more to help reduce Pit Bull attacks, etc.

I mean, it's not like a dog can read this forum (or a book, etc.) and take action. It's the responsibility of humans.

I espouse training and education all the time. That's why I posted the Ceasar Milan videos. I wish ALL Pit Bull owners would be responsible, but sadly, they are not.

If it were up to me, any human found responsible for a Pit Bull attack would get a year in jail....and never be allowed to own any dog again...ever....and that would be mandatory.

Second offense would be 5 years in prison. If a death is involved - mandatory 15 years to life.

Now why isn't this already a law on the books? It sure isn't the dog's fault.

The human species is not only stupid but it is irresponsible. History has shown us that.

Don't blame me....I'm just the messenger......SmileWavy

Baz, what about my friends' situation? Experienced dawg lovers all their lives....all they did wrong was take in a 7 week old puppy....sweetest thing I've been around...until she wasn't :(. I used to think like you (and many do)....it's how they were raised....I found out I was wrong. The aggressiveness (towards other dogs in particular) is due to generations of breeding...it just is. I truly hope no one has to experience what I have first hand...YMMV.

like you suggestions Baz..
but let's not wait till an attack occurs..
I would add..
if you need / want to own one of those breeds..
it must be chipped, registered & you must maintain some big $$ insurance..
that would cut down the wannabees fast..
failure to do so would send the dog to the pound for adoption or death..
and you to the clink for 6 months..( no exceptions)

Rika

I like your suggestions, Rika.

Keith......see Rika's post.....those humans responsible should pay the price. Eventually it will reduce incidents, in theory.

Nothing can happen in an instant. The start would be enacting stronger legislation.

Of course, politicians make their #1 priority to get re-elected so there's that. That's why cell phone use by drivers is still legal here in Florida.

How do you get legislation passed...that's the question.

Baz, that dog abuse video in the elevator was sickening. I made it through 22 seconds and could not watch further.

+1 on Rika suggestions.

I don't know your friends, but here's one possibility. Most dog owners think they know a fair amount about dogs. I thought I did too, until I read a few books about how they think.

I'm not talking about the books that you get at the pet store, they are too simplistic to be of any value. There are books out there that go into a greater amount of detail and the more you learn about dogs, the more you realize you didn't know anything at all and most of what you did think you knew was close to 100% wrong.

Fortunately, most dogs are fairly tolerant of our ignorance and most owners are fortunate that the things they do wrong never come back to bite them (pun intended.)

I've been semi retired for about nine years and have spent all of that time at home, every day, interacting with my dogs in a way that I never did before. I am now acutely aware of what they are thinking, their energy levels, and I am far more consistent in interacting with them in the way they understand. I spend more time than you would think managing their daily activities. I have no problems, because I am on top of what they are doing and thinking at all times. I would not let them get to a point where they were a danger to each other, or to others.

There's no question that certain dogs require more of an owner than others. It's a shame that most people are not qualified to own such a dog. Nothing I can do about that, but hopefully people will become better educated, make better choices and realize they have some learning to do.

Let me start with my neighbor has a PB that doesn't scare me in the least, however she has been very well socialized. My neighbors are very social and have BBQ, Watch sports together, etc and everyone brings their dogs with no problems.

I have owned dogs and cats but I enjoy the low maintenance of cats.

I find Mountain Lions beautiful, we went to the San Diego zoo and a Snow leopard laid down right up against the front of the cage, one of the most beautiful animals on earth. Would I want one in my house? Nuh uh... no way... I don't understand why people want a pet that can kill them.

Nice in theory, but you can't get blood out of a rock. You get a rock like the one in the last link that Mr Higgins posted, that story does not support his position very well BTW, best you could do is lock them up.

They let anyone have a dog or a kid, both are big responsibilities and can grow up to be killers. You can't compel people to act responsibly.

being kind hearted at the expense of others safety just isn't being kind hearted. it's being selfish.

sorry but thats how I feel on the matter. I mean no offense to Baz on this and certainly still like the guy but my opinion is that this breed has no business existing around children or the elderly for that matter and as we can't control who might knock on our door or walk past our yard the breed has no business existing.

Baz, you have absolutely refused to address the single biggest topic of concern with these dogs - their breeding. Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to believe that has anything to do with their violent nature serves to greatly diminish your credibility regarding anything at all to do with dogs. Your notion that environment is everything is demonstrably wrong.

Folks like you, in your misguided compassion, actually serve to endanger unwitting potential dog owners. The misinformation concerning dangerous, aggressive breeds that folks like you love to perpetuate can very well lead to some poor family's horrible tragedy. As a matter of fact, I'm quite certain it has, time and time again. That leaves you, and folks singing the same song, at least indirectly responsible every time a pit bull mauls or kills some poor family's precious child. Some poor family that bought one unaware of the potential consequences, because they listened to someone like you - "oh, any breed raised in a loving environment will grow up to be a loving family pet, perfectly incapable of any sort of violent aggression towards anyone..."

How does that make you feel? There certainly are no shortage of news stories concerning the family pit bull that turned on a member of the family and mauled or killed them. Usually a young, helpless member of the family. These are dogs that are raised as beloved family pets, yet they still turn and inflict a great deal of harm. The lies that you and your kind spread about these dogs are at least partly responsible for these tragedies. Totally avoidable tragedies at that. I hope you are proud...

Hey I'm right there with you BF, and agree on not being kind-hearted at the expense of other's safety. Those who are irresponsible should receive punishment. Mandatory and very tough!

Anyone careless with their dog.......should get serious jail time.

It's not like a dog can pick and choose where a human takes them.

As I have said before.....the human species can be extremely stupid and careless and in certain ways dog ownership should be taken as seriously as gun ownership.

Get TOUGH on those whose carelessness results in injury or death!

And let's not let just anyone own a dog! SmileWavy

Jeff...you obviously have not read any of my posts. I have said repeatedly that humans should be held accountable. Period.

I don't know any other way to put it.
That covers all stupid chit they do in regards to pit bull issues or with any other breed. Everything!

Certain people should not be allowed to own a dog...let alone breed them. Plenty of worthy rescues in shelters!

Cheers, my friend. ;)

My neighbor down the street has a PB mix. I think it must be half Great Dane, the dog is huge. And powerful. I have never seen a head on a dog so big before. Their son got it as a puppy to train it for weight pulling contests but never got around to it. It is well trained and socialized and I have never had a problem with it. Well one time it scared the crap out of me. At a party one night it came up behind me, stuck it snout between my legs and lifted me off the floor. The son trained it to do that. Ha ha! About a year ago they did have an incident. Some stranger came to the door. There is a narrow window right next to the door that is about 8" wide. The dog smashed the window but could not squeeze more than his head through to attack the stranger. The animal was all cut up by the broken glass along the edges of the window but was uncontrollable. They finally got the dog calmed down enough to extract his head from the window and get him to the vet. Big bill for stitches. I don't visit any more.

There is no reason for PB's to be on this earth.

Severely punishing an owner does not give back to the child his face.

A PB tearing into another living thing is 100% the PB's fault. Owning one of the unpredictable bred-to-kill beasts is 100% the owner's fault.

Because animals have no responsibilities, they have no rights. I'm sorry if you love your cute little PB; just about as sorry as I am for somebody who owns a chimpanzee.

Truth is there are tons of breeds out there none of which would improve the species more than the elimination of PB's.

I have read all of your posts, Baz. Several times. I must be missing something (it wouldn't be the first time).

Your "humans should be held accountable" stance does not address the unwitting family lulled into a false sense of security by the "pit bulls are just misunderstood and mistreated" mantra. Who is held accountable when a normal, loving family falls into the trap of having unwittingly bought a vicious animal that is no more than a ticking time bomb? The family? Are they accountable? Did they just get what they deserved, or what? You've lost me.

There are those who say the same thing about automatic weapons.

I'm not saying it.

Others are.

To me it's not apples to apples.

It's not the gun's fault it can kill so many people in such a short time.

People who will never get their lives back, regardless of the punishment.

Maybe more education and stronger laws will help in both cases....none of which is happening tough because politicians value their votes.....:rolleyes:

Hey Jeff...I'm interested in what you had in mind.

Something similar to illegal aliens? No more get in....then deal with the ones we have here already?

You're in charge......go for it.....

=========

Edit: to answer your question.....

Really and truly if we are serious about reducing injury and death....I think we need to start looking at dog (or pet in general) ownership similarly as we look at owning a car or firearm. Get training and education (start at grade school level?) - stiff fines/imprisonment for violations - regulate who can sell and who can buy - and after all that....if the situation you offer above happens...guess it would amount to the same thing when a family buys a firearm (or sports car) and one day they are harmed because of that decision.....you can only do so much to help folks...at some point there has to be some personal accountability.

No, Baz.

Your analogy is wrong.

There should be fewer and fewer down to zero of a specific gun that is always cocked, cannot be unloaded and has been proven to spontaneously and unpredictably fire a round all by itself for no discernible reason and anyone owning and/or possessing one when it does is culpable.

The gun has no rights, including the right to exist.

Not my analogy, Bob.

Not apples to apples.

But out of curiosity....what is our total % of Pit Bull ownership in this country and what is the % of injures/deaths.

Then let's do the same calculation with hand guns.

I'm just curious what the stats are....

Robert, with all due respect, your analogy is FAR more specious than anything else in the thread.

Since we are going to have a list of dog breeds that are to be destroyed, starting with any that has any "pit bull" blood flowing through their veins, what others are to be eliminated?

I will start.


Chow Chow, any breed related to the German Shepherd/Belgian Malinois, Rottweiler, Doberman and Mastiff. Only dog that ever bit me was a standard Poodle, so they need to go too. What else needs to be on the list.

Jeff, you have not really answered the only question Baz has asked, and he responded to all yours. Okay, your thread, and you are king of the world who seems to know more about this than the rest of us. Give us the answer that you so obviously know to this conundrum.

Oh, and a human is the most violent, unpredictable critter that has ever strode the Earth, we need to get to that too, eventually.

One stat that I can say is 100% true is that I am totally prejudiced against all PB's.

Call me a Pit Bullist.

Dogs sense fear in others and it ups their perception of their place in the hierarchy. I see a PB and I am automatically sending a message to that dog that I am scared ****less of it, that I hate it and want it dead. Were I a PB I'd attack myself.

I'm looking at some guy walking a PB down the street and see the leash and collar are 3/16" chain I'm not thinking I want to go give that cute little pup a hug.

Some of you guys shouldn't own any dogs, let alone a pit bull.

I feel the same way about many humans, Bob! Like Rika said....there ARE 2-legged Pit Bulls....:D

We have a winner....ding ding ding. Except this applies to many humans....present company excluded, of course. SmileWavy

I think you are definitely on the right track, Baz. Education, training, and personal accountability. A large part of that must be the willingness of the entire canine community, from breeders to owners to vets to advocates, presenting a realistic picture of each and every breed. Especially with these kinds of breeds. Too many families get duped by the "nurture not nature" message being promoted by pit bull advocates and apologists.

So, yeah - special licenses for breeders of these animals. Licenses to own these animals. Mandatory inspections of facilities as a prerequisite for either. Temperament screenings wherein individuals shown to be prone to wanton acts of aggression are put down (dogs, but maybe owners as well ;) ). Some sort of controls on these aggressive breeds.

I'm not sure I can buy into the guns and sports cars parallel. These are inanimate objects with no will of their own. They do not act independently of their owners. No car will ever start itself and go on a rampage (unless it's Christine...). No gun will ever load itself on go on a rampage. A living, breathing, thinking animal will. As such, I think it is prudent to enact strict controls on their ownership.

I'll put my natural ability and experience with critters up there with anyone....it's a "gift" :). I "think" that if I had acquired their PB puppy at 7 weeks old, then it might have had a different outcome....but I just can't say for sure. I do know this....my friends did nothing wrong....except bring a puppy into their pack of three....just average dog lovers...

I just know what they and I have experienced first hand. Have you? Point is....a casual dog lover/owner and a PB (or any dog showing hyper aggressive traits with the ferocity I've experienced first hand) is dangerous imo. My friends wanted me to take an offspring....I would not....after much soul searching, I simply would not risk small kids and other pets I sm around...couldn't :(.

this illustrates why the breed should be gone.

you have a guy who says 'I'm smart enough, but others may not be. trust ME.'

I'm not interesting in risking a childs safety on some guys self assessment.

Nobody has a natural ability with dogs unless they were raised by dogs. That doesn't describe anyone I know as we were all raised by humans. When we think like humans and try and incorporate dogs into our world we make mistake after mistake. We have to learn to think as a dog does and structure their environment in a way that makes sense to them.

That's clearly too much work for most people, so they should probably own cats. It's like anything else, whether it's learning how to raise a kid, or shoot a gun, or drive a car. It requires us to make an investment into increasing our understanding of the world and dog ownership generally doesn't get that respect.

Those of you that want to learn more about dogs, and more about yourself, I suggest that you pick up a book or two. Start with one called "Inside of a Dog," by Horowitz. It's sufficiently detailed yet still accessible, so it should be a very instructive read for just about anybody participating in this thread.

100% agree it is up to humans.

In Dade county Humans passed laws that outright ban ownership of the breed in the county. That in my opinion is a good start.

Humans at home Insurance companies will deny coverage if you tell them you have a pit in your house.

Humans that manage apartment complexes have a no pit bull policy.

Humans at the county we live in have a no pit bull rule at dog parks.

Humans that own dog day cares have a no pitbull policy.

Another thing humans can do, not own them, they are not cool, they are dangerous animals.

You mentioned assault weapons in a post above, in my opinion owning a Pit is akin to loading a AR-15 the tossing it on your couch then hoping nothing goes wrong with a house full of kids.

My weapons are all locked in a safe.

I would never consider owning a dog that if it has a bad day someone can end up dead.

Here is a story of another human that sucks, he owns a pitbull that alone makes him suck, what makes him suck more is his pitbull was running loose at 6:00 this morning.

All I could think of was how defenseless I was against this thing if it decided to go for our dog and to be honest it was sketchy as hell. It kept charging our dog.

Our dog loves all dogs and everyone, her head was down, ears back and tail between her legs through the entire encounter, I never seen her submit like that before.

All that said, just ordered a cattle prod and tazer off of amazon. I guess its time to get off my ass and visit the sheriff and get my CCW application in too. I am still pretty pissed that a pit was loose in my neighborhood this morning. We were going to trap it in our side yard after it followed us all the way to our house so we could have animal control come get it, it left before we could entice it in that yard.

It did chase my neighbor across the street back into her house along with her Lab puppy before it left.