The future for Freon as a coolant in your home AC?

[Baz]

R-22 is the older version....R-410A is what they are using now.

I heard on another forum there's another new one coming.

Was he just referring to the R-410A - or is there yet another new one coming?

Anyone know?

James?

[intakexhaust]

Installed a new system last year (comp. and air air handler) of which required a new fluid line. Supposedly the R-22 line wasn't compatible. I forget the details but thought copper is copper, yet was told its about operating and pressure capacity required with R410a. Whatever.

Ten years from now and probably get phased out again.

[red-beard]

R410 has a lower heat capacity and requires more flow, which means a larger pipe. It also has a lower compressed temperature, which means poorer cooling in very hot temperatures. We had to upsize our office unit from 2.5 tons (R22) to 3.5 Tons (R410A). The temp in our office utility area can exceed 110 degrees, with an ambient of 95F.

For some reason, maybe it is the higher operating pressures, but we've had evaporator and condenser leak issues with R410A.

Our house is R22

[Alan A]

I'm so happy I bought a canister of R-22 for $20

[billybek]

410a is a bit of a global warming gas and will be phased out in due time.
As far as the replacement goes, it will probably be some cocktail that Dupont or Honeywell cooks up.
Always seems like once the patent expires on one of their products, it automatically becomes a bad refrigerant and needs to be replaced.
Great for the service industry and great for equipment manufactures!

There is a big push towards natural refrigerants, but at what cost in regards to energy consumption and safety?

[billybek]

Originally Posted by Alan A

I'm so happy I bought a canister of R-22 for $20

Score!

[Baz]

Thanks for all the replies.

I think this guy was talking about the 410A.

I'm still on 22 at my house. Got a new outside unit a couple years ago and everything working better than ever.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by billybek

410a is a bit of a global warming gas and will be phased out in due time.
As far as the replacement goes, it will probably be some cocktail that Dupont or Honeywell cooks up.
Always seems like once the patent expires on one of their products, it automatically becomes a bad refrigerant and needs to be replaced.
Great for the service industry and great for equipment manufactures!

There is a big push towards natural refrigerants, but at what cost in regards to energy consumption and safety?

Pretty much.

CO2 is actually quite good on the energy consumption side, but the pressures required to have it in liquid form create a safety issue.

[cashflyer]

Bring back anhydrous ammonia!!

As a refrigerant, ammonia has four major advantages over CFCs and HCFCs:

>An ammonia-based refrigeration systems costs 10-20% less to build than one that uses CFCs because narrower-diameter piping can be used.
>Ammonia is a 3-10% more efficient refrigerant than CFCs, so an ammonia-based system requires less electricity, resulting in lower operating costs.
>Ammonia is safe for the environment, with an Ozone Depletion Potential (ODP) rating of 0 and a Global Warming Potential (GWP) rating of 0.
>Ammonia is substantially less expensive than CFCs or HCFCs

[rick-l]

does pulling out of the Paris treaty affect this at all

[strupgolf]

I just had our AC repaired and the bill for freon, whatever code named, was $550.00. I called and they said freon has just gone through the roof because of a shortage due to a plant shut down for repairs. Yea, right.

[billybek]

R-22 is getting pretty pricey so no surprise there.

R717 is a great refrigerant.... That pesky IDLH thing holds it back for many installations.

That said. The latent heat of evaporation for 717 is about 575 Btu/Lb of refrigerant +/- pending pressure and temperature.

R-22 is ballpark 95 Btu/lb. Each pound of 717 traveling through the evaporator is able to pick up over 5 times as much heat energy!

Ammonia is a great refrigerant and will be put into use in more applications in the future.
Safety concerns are the only limiting factor here.

Was reading about a centrifugal chiller by Kawasaki Heavy industries that utilized R718 as a refrigerant.
Another very dangerous refrigerant. Google "Dihydrogen Monoxide" and learn about how hazardous this refrigerant can be!
It is actually one of the best refrigerants available to us today but has a very annoying quality of reaching its triple when trying to obtain low refrigerant temperature.

[Brian 162]

When I was starting out in hvac we used to service a/c units in homes that were basically chillers. Instead of a compressor the ammonia was heated by natural gas. The ammonia would chill the water that was pumped to the indoor coil.

[T77911S]

Freon is actually a brand. yea its easier to spell than refrifg...refrigd....refrigerant.

water(r718) is actually better than r717.

you can still get r22 units, they are not pre-charged like the 410 units.
you can also still buy r22 although it has gone up....a lot. a few years ago I bought a jug for around 200. not sure what it is now.

it would be pretty bad if they phase out 410, after all they JUST switched over to it.

I just put in a new 410 unit a few years ago.

[asphaltgambler]

There will always be 'Freon' because DuPont owns the rights / patents for it. When that comes to an end, suddenly the lobbyists appear, global warming scenarios, death to the atmosphere from the current 'mix'.

BUT WAIT! - WE ( DuPont) have the solution! A NEW freon formula that's SAFER than the current version - which by the way - our patents are soon expiring on the current formula...

Lather, rinse, repeat

[cashflyer]

For those who don't know the HVAC secret handshake, r717 is ammonia.
And while IDLH is a concern, many home in my area have the HVAC unit completely outside of the home, and only the ductwork in the house. A system can be built that has no ability to vent into the home.

CFC/HCFC as well as ammonia are all dangerous to human health. The CFC/HCFC will displace oxygen and asphyxiate you. The ammonia will attack your mucous membranes, and will also asphyxiate you.

Publication regarding the latent heat of vaporization of ammonia, from 1917
http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/bulletin/14/nbsbulletinv14n3p439_A2b.pdf

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

For those who don't know the HVAC secret handshake, r717 is ammonia.
And while IDLH is a concern, many home in my area have the HVAC unit completely outside of the home, and only the ductwork in the house. A system can be built that has no ability to vent into the home.

CFC/HCFC as well as ammonia are all dangerous to human health. The CFC/HCFC will displace oxygen and asphyxiate you. The ammonia will attack your mucous membranes, and will also asphyxiate you.

Publication regarding the latent heat of vaporization of ammonia, from 1917
http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/bulletin/14/nbsbulletinv14n3p439_A2b.pdf

There is still a coil inside the ductwork... does the ammonia system chill water that gets pumped into the coil in house ductwork?
And yes the A/C coil inside your house has Freon in it that can suffocate you.

[intakexhaust]

Reading up on an HVAC site, supposedly r-410a is a blend of R32 and r125.

Also R32 is used in Japan, operates at the same pressure and A2L flammable rated. Comparatively mild rated though I don't know how poisonous it is burning.

For new system compressors, the issues I see is longevity.

I know of many five decade old R22 systems putting out well but at the expense of inefficient draw on electric.

[Baz]

My local CL has some sealed 30 lb. containers of R-22 for $450 each.

They used to have caveats for prospective buyers saying they would only sell to someone with an HVAC license. Didn't see that today.

Guess private sales of refrigerant is not regulated (?)

[cashflyer]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

There is still a coil inside the ductwork... does the ammonia system chill water that gets pumped into the coil in house ductwork?

Not sure - but my point is that a safe system can be designed.
I know in the local BWR, they manage to keep from irradiating the cooling water that is discharged back to the lake. And that's like, radiation, man. If they can keep radiation out of my lake water, can't they keep ammonia out of my house? Sure they can. DARPA or NASA have engineers for that sort of thing.