Sigh...another Camaro vs. Mustang comparo
 

By Motor Trend. The hot new 650 horsepower Camaro vs. the 350GTR. Fun to watch, but I don't drive deserted roads blocked off by cops or do laps around Willow Springs. Didn't find it interesting that these cars on street tires are very close in lap times to our own Jack Olsen in his race tire equipped "black Beauty II"...

https://themustangsource.com/ford-shelby-mustang-gt350r-versus-chevy-camaro-zl1-finally-22158/?newsletter?utm_source=jan16&utm_medium=email&utm_ campaign=content

Modern technology is amazing. Pull the fuses on the traction control and ABS and see how well they do.

So a car that has a 45 year advantage in technology, considered to be one of the most hardcore pony car of the moment, boasts well over 500 horses still can't keep up with Jack???

I find that very interesting, and amusing for that mather.
:D

That zl1 doesnt look to be the new 1le which is the uber handling trim, which is absurdly fast around a track. I think it is about on par with a 991 gt3 from the reports.


I wonder how fast an zl1 1le would be around a track if you removed a bunch of interior stuff, put 2x the factory rubber on, and swapped in a drive train from the 2047 model

Yeah, double or more the power (272hp vs 526hp or 650hp) and 45 years and still slower. And I know that Jacks a good driver, but I have to assume that Randy P might be a little faster (and he's doing it in various cars, vs Jack who has had years to practice in just the one).
No, they mentioned in the video that it's not the 1LE because it was announced the day after they secured the loan of the ZL1, and when they shot the video, the 1LE wasn't going to be available for another 2 months.

Thanks.

One correction: I'm not on race tires.

I run Nitto NT01s year-round, and the same set for both regular street driving and track use. I know the Mustang's Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires are quicker than my Nittos. And I suspect the Camaro's G:2 version of the Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperCar tires are stickier, as well. (But I don't have hard data on that.)

My car is old, but it's still a full second faster than the 650-hp Camaro and 1-1/2 seconds faster than the 526-hp Mustang.

On worse tires. Without a pro driver. And with all of 272 hp at the crank. :)

I'll attach my smug Porsche graphic.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1500500845.jpg

that took longer than expected

I'm out of the country right now. :)

PoTY!

hahahahaha

With a LOT more weight on each than on Jack's car. Don't read me wrong, I'm a fan of Colin Chapman's light weight premise. But it's also obvious that the "pony car" can no longer be called a one trick pony. For a pair of porkers, they make it around willow pretty damned well.

45 years of technical advances require lots of extra weight and safety features.

The Camaro is a 4000 lbs.
The Mustang is 3800 lbs.

Jack's car would not pass modern safety regs.
So, it's a trade off.

Some will prefer new, others old.

It's not all environmental and safety regs...the added weight. It's also comfort features most now demand. I will confess that I wouldn't buy a car without air conditioning today. But looking at my old '09 Mustang...do I need power seating? Nope, but it came standard on the Bullitt model. Do I need power windows? Power mirrors? No idea how much those servo motors weigh, but it all adds up...

Jack,you should make that a poster.

That thing is carbed?

I think it is amazing that a Camaro (admittedly in expensive trim) can more or less keep up with a modern GT3. Im not really a muscle car guy, but it is a good times for these cars. I have been fantasizing about daily driving one of the V8 rwd porkers lately.

Jack's car isn't 90% friggin squeaky hard plastic either.

Dude. How much air pressure do you run in those nittos?
It's like they aren't even flat at all on the bottom.

lmao :d

No kidding, can you imagine how much faster he'd be if he had contact patches? :eek:

Watch, any minute now jack is gonna post a head-slap selfie. If he's in town I mean .......


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1500510091.jpg

I thought it was the NOS and Greddy stickers that make your car faster?

http://kayakdave.com/wp-content/uplo...ID-Sticker.jpg

Ya want a lighter Pony Car? Hmmm, seems it's already been done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeVwjHzXRPI

The 991.1 GT3 time was 1:27.2, if I remember right. I believe the 991.2 time will be significantly faster, leaving my 1:26.8 in the dust.

Agreed. I'm happy that I'm a tiny bit quicker, for now. But 5 or 10 (or 20 or 30) years ago, the gap would have been huge. It isn't anymore. To their credit, Ford and Chevy have seriously stepped up their game with these cars. It's incredible.

The big issue isn't safety regs. I can make a pretty long list contemporary cars that weigh about the same or less than my car and pass federal crash regulations. One issue is that they make the cars so large. Set one of these next to the 1960s design they take their inspiration from, and you can see how they've scaled the designs up to a larger dimension. To my (admittedly old) eyes, the driver always looks like a 3/4-scale model inside the cars. I'm sure it has to do with marketing. Today's buyers want big cars.

Another factor is that the chassis that can handle 650 hp has to be extremely strong/rigid, which means more weight.

I think that photo was taken in free-fall. :)

Actually, it's a really nice rendering by a guy named Elie Man.

I sat in a new Chevy Camaro when they first came out at the Detroit Auto show, and wasn't impressed. I felt like a small child unable to see over the window sills, the plastic interior trim was chintzy at best, the seats felt way too firm with buldges in the wrong spots, and just felt really big.

I also sat in a new Mustang GT that day, and although the interior trim wasn't much better, I liked everything about it, and had no other complaints.

I realize that these top of the line performance packages are absolute cutting edge with thier power, and grip levels, but unless you are abusing these cars regularly at track days, or illegally carving canyon roads at rediculous speeds, you will never use half of these car's capabilities.

I also would choose the Mustang over the Camaro any day of the week for the same reasons they did in the video....it looks, sounds, and feels better than the Chevy.

if the new camaro didn't look like the 69 after 40 years and too many donuts and botox it might be OK. Not a good looking car...Not at all. No HP would talk me into owning one. The original 69 had better visibility as well.

rjp

I was talking about the zl1 1le vs current gt3, by magazine fanboi racing analysis it is nearly as fast. It depends on how you define nearly and how much magnification you want to put the available data under, but in general it is a very fast track car given it is 100% street car. this is impressive to me considering it is a camaro and relatively inexpensive (at least compared to a gt3)

visibility seem terrible though, agreed

Guys, check out my youtube link above. It's a Jay Leno Garage bit, a firm that replaced the body of a 350GTR with all carbon fiber, shaving a bunch of weight.
Another of those fun things the wealthy can do, I guess. Cost? $70,000 was mentioned.

As I hinted at in my opening post, all pretty useless for any real world driving. Unless you are a track junkie, one can't use what these type cars are capable of.
Trapped in a traffic jam on I-5, the stop & go making my clutch leg weary, I look over at Cindy and said that it was times like these that made me really wish I had 500 horsepower.

Hey, my '09 Bullitt Mustang, with it's modest 315 horsepower is slow, old, and obsolete. That kinda fits it's owner... In crowded traffic? Good air conditioning and a stereo are more important than power and handling.

A sad indictment of the time we live in, but there it is.

Crash testing requires design changes.

Back in my day a guy could roll down the driver's side window and hang his elbow out the window and be comfortable and coooool.

But to meet the crash test requirements for side impact, they need to raise the belt line of the door and reinforce it and install air bags and all kinds of nanny crap. That ruins the lines of the car and makes them heavy.

Now the bottom of the door window is at the driver's ear and there's no way to hang an arm out the window.
It's kinda like riding in the back of a pick up, no way to do it and look cool at the same time (Gallagher).

Auto enthusiast always get a bit philosophical about the return to lightweight and simple, myself definitely included. But in general the purist type cars don't seem to do that well in the market place. The fancy porshe gt models seem to be the exception but even they are quite portly compared to old cars.

My exige weighs just over 2000 lbs is actually quite comfortable once inside. I consider it a modern poor mans RS. It is admittedly a pita to live with on the road sometimes. Reduced weight is the noblest pusuit in automotive engineering but there aren't alot of drivers to get too crazy with it. If you go to the track alot you are better off building something for yourself, and on the road the portly fast cars make are sensible. Hell some of these high powered cars even get good mpg.

sat in a new mustang the other day. most definitely not a car for the claustrophobic. how something can be nearly twice the size of my dear departed 911 and yet feel infinitely less inviting is beyond me .

it is no doubt infinitely safer too. but for the purposes of a car enthusiasts views you can keep the two ton monster. i'll take light and fun any day.

its 33k with a 400+ hp and the track package, handles pretty well and can run way into the 12sec quarter mile

I agree Id much rather have lighter and give up some power, but you dont have alot of options if you are shopping new for this. You could buy a slightly cheaper miata or subaru BRZ which are definitely lighter and more fun, but MUCH slower. Otherwise lower priced performance cars are just a porky

the small FWD performance cars are fun to drive though. I rented a fiesta ST for the nurburgring and it was all grins to drive.

The world needs a new 2800-2900lbs 300 hp rwd small sedan for 30ishk. I dont think anyone will build one though

This right here is why the used BMW M3s are going for big money....just a perfectly balenced package.

I bought a 2016 Mustang GT. I considered several cars.

I considered a C6 Corvette, but I kind of wanted a back seat so that I wasn't limited to driving the car without my kids.

I considered a new FIAT 124 Spyder, but the engine reliability scared me.

I considered a new Miata, but I really don't like the look of them despite being a great car.

I considered a BRZ, but that was after test driving the Mustang and was already a little smitten with the Mustang having double the HP.

I considered a Ford Focus RS, but dealerships were only taking orders for $20k over sticker (dealt with the same crap trying to find a GT350 at sticker).

I can definitely feel that the Mustang is heavy in cornering, and it isn't as tossable as my old RX-8 or 951, but it's a blast to pull out of corners at WOT.

High beltline is for styling, not crash protection. The Camaro feels like a pillbox, the Mustang doesn't. As for weight, I suspect a lot of it is for lack of trying. The Miata is around 2400 lbs and meets every modern crash test. I think the 991 is around 3400 lbs. But with a huge V8 you can be lazy and not sweat every ounce. Besides, the vast majority of Mustang/Camaro customers buy them as cruisers, not corner carvers. Know your customers.....

I read somewhere that ford initiated a big market study to determine if a 15% smaller mustang was the way to go. They really wanted to sell a bunch of these in europe as well. Im not sure of the details but it obviously didnt get any smaller. I think their customers spoke.

New miata is awesome, wish it was available with 30 more HP, and so it Goes......

I read somewhere that ford initiated a big market study to determine if a 15% smaller mustang was the way to go. They really wanted to sell a bunch of these in europe as well. Im not sure of the details but it obviously didnt get any smaller. I think their customers spoke.

New miata is awesome, wish it was available with 30 more HP, and so it Goes......

Legion; Well, the Coyote is no Voodoo flat crank, but you should find the power adequate. If you feel the need for more? Try a set of 350GT heads...they're a bolt on for the 5.0, and definitely improve breathing some..

They ARE selling a bunch in Europe...and to Ford's surprise, most European customers are opting for the 5.0 over the ecoboost.