Saving for the future
 

I’m a fairly young engineer (almost 25 years old) and I’m trying to figure out how to save for the future besides throwing money into a low interest bank account. I don’t really have any experience in investing – although I was dabbling in fiber optic stocks last month and got burned (thx aaoi). I talked to a financial planner and he was really trying to push his life insurance products on me – that made me a little nervous. Does anyone have any thoughts about taking 1k/month (I can save a little over 2k a month, while still being comfortable) and putting it into a 500 index fund (like a vanguard fund – VFINX)? In a 10 year span, this particular one has averaged ~7%. If I got 5%, I’d be looking at a nice chunk of change in 5-10 years. I’m already maxing out my 401K at work and it is set to a fairly aggressive portfolio. Should I talk to a different FP? Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

No expert by any means and getting into investing late in the game, so I can say that by starting young you are taking advantage of compounding your money over many, many years.

I have been told by several folks that I know who have done well is that they did best by investing in mutual funds rather than trying to pick individual stocks.

Do you have any kind of 401K matching at work? That would be a good start as you get your money doubled or whatever right away.

Enjoy your early retirement- you're setting yourself up well!

My apologies, I just saw you are already maxing your 401 at work.

Another good thing is to diversify, maybe some real estate?

I recommend finding a financial planner that is strictly fee-based (not commission) and work through a couple scenarios with him. What I've done (and is working for me) is invest in a variety of mutual funds and diversified stocks. I'm careful to watch for indications of things going south and act accordingly.

Of course, you're going to get a lot of opinions here (and the full range, too - everything from "invest in XXX" to "get out of the market before the great collapse"). All I can say is research and go find "truth" for yourself. There are no problems with amassing cash while you make a decision...

Good starting point to begin to educate yourself.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started

Smart man. I started investing in Mutual Funds in my mid twenties for a future down payment on a house and retirement. By the time I was 32 I had a fat amount for a down payment and bought my first house.

You're way ahead of most folks your age for even considering your financial future.

BUY THIS BOOK! How I wish Cindy & I had read this before we made our first investment.

The Bogleheads' guide to investing
by Taylor Larimore/Mel Lindauer/Michael LeBoeuf

It is chock full of investing knowledge. Explaining terms & investing tools in a language anyone can easily understand. Before you give anyone money, understand what you are getting into.

Vanguard is a great fund family.

I congratulate you for starting so young! This gives you time to ride out any sudden downturns.

(edit) This forum isn't the best for investing info. Some here are savvy, some not so much. To participate with those who do put their money where their mouths are, you might want to sign up here:

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php

I'll second the comment about getting into & paying off a house at as young of an age as you can. Being free of putting out a decent chunk of your income toward a mortgage gives you a huge sense of security and freedom. I'd do the best you can to divide up that and putting as much savings away as you can. As far as I'm concerned, I'd avoid financial planners and go straight for establishing a Roth (or a combination if you actually can exceed the limits) account paying into a low fee mutual fund. Vanguard low fee funds are a good place to start. Also Paul's suggestion on doing some educational reading is a big help.

Read this The Ultimate Buy and Hold Strategy 2017 - Paul Merriman | Paul Merriman

This is done by the numbers and is about minimizing risk and maximizing return and is fairly in line with Bogle, I believe. The guy used to manage investing for a living and is now retired. He is all about educating people now. He is all about passive index funds and diversification. He backs it up with lots of numbers. It makes a lot of sense.

the idea comes down to this to maximize diversity and minimize risk, 50/50 on foreign and domestic, 50/50 on large cap and small cap, 50/50 on growth and value. He has a couple of different recommendations depending upon if it's a tax deferred account or a taxable account (adding REITs or not).

Www.fool.com

No affiliation.

A good low cost S&P index is a good starting point, although think about it, your 401K may already heavily invested in such. You may choose to go individual stocks. You have time on your side. (Unless you need it in 5 years, in which case, stocks are not the best for this. Stocks should be held for like 10 to 20 years. Even longer.)

Probably can't do better than an index fund in your situation. It's simple and safe in the long term. Buy and hold, watch and learn. In a few years you will have a solid foundation and be ready to diversify into real estate or other more complicated investments and you will have had time to study and understand them.
Stay away from life insurance products. Only get into them under the advice of a trusted accountant who knows your situation well or a fee-only financial advisor (an advisor who doesn't make their coin by selling you financial products).

Property is a good thing to get into. You won't get rich quickly but as a very long time investment it's great.

Investing...........
 

Since you are already doing the 401K thing, etc, you might want to think about getting some commercial rental property. I say commercial because commercial tenants tend to take good care of their business locations thus minimizing repair costs. Look for property in/on a busy road or area. An older building can work if it has been maintained over the years. With a good location and reasonable rent structures, you can keep tenants for many years. Then, when you get ready to sell, the value of the property should have increased several times. You get the good payday when you sell. I did this for about 35 years and had a good second income stream with little effort on my part. I paid $75K for my property, had an income stream of about $25k per year which easily made the building payments and maintenance costs and still left about $10-12k per year income. When I sold the property, it was long paid for and brought about 5 times the original cost! The only downside was having to pay capital gains taxes! Happy investing!

I never, ever give anyone investment advice other than what I have told my children:

Develop a sense of what you are willing to lose. Investing is a risk/reward proposition. Figure that out first. The books and advice so far has been excellent. The key is how much time and effort do you want to spend on the various types of investing (mutual, individual stocks, property, etc.) venues available?

Then speak with at least three FPs. Explain to them you tolerance for risk. Based on their responses, begin to do some homework. Your risk tolerance may change but if you are not an "all in" type of person, don't be. I am a conservative investor and it has served my very well.

Friends of mine have been much more aggressive and have done very well, much better than I have. But I have never lost a minute of sleep worrying (about the the way things might have been).

Investing is for the rest of your life, don't trust anyone with your future. Investing, especially today, isn't rocket surgery.

Give it some time. Follow the basic, first rule: Get a household budget. Informative link here: http://www.leavedebtbehind.com/frugal-living/budgeting/10-recommended-category-percentages-for-your-family-budget/

Be realistic. There is nothing worse than an unhappy spendthrift. If you want to spend more and save less because it makes you happy in your 20's, do it. Understand the consequences.

Then for the love of all that is financial, stick with it! Adjust, certainly, but stay within the tried and true basics.

Once you are better informed, go back to the three FPs and ask them, based on your risk tolerance and house hold budget, to chart a five year path. The next decision is yours.

Kudos for starting early. My children both did as well.

One last thing. Do a budget review, deep dive on the investments quarterly. My wife and I use our tax returns, which we do ourselves, as the final review and yearly planning point.

You're already doing some good work. Never hurts to speak to several FP's. A lot of good advice posted already. I agree with Marv about diversifying. There is no magic bullet.

The only thing I would deviate from is the "buy a house". Buy an income property, 2, 3, 4 units, live in one for a few years. There is plenty of time to buy a house and raise a family. Let the tenants money work for you and build equity. Add to the payments and pay it down as quickly as you can. Plus you get the investment write offs. When you do buy a house the unit you lived in becomes another source of income and the rent now pays the mortgage for your house.

I would also look into buying municipal tax liens. You can earn as much as 18% little risk very secure.

The mindset as exhibited here ^^^ is all predicated upon past experiences with no conceptualization of what the future dynamic might be.

There is one major dynamic that is at work today which HAS NEVER TAKEN PLACE in the history of the USA before. The FED is MONETIZING DEBT, they have printed money to fund the US government. What is insidious about it is that the currency they are monetizing is the Worlds Reserve currency. Equate it to the FED and other Central banks pulling the rug out from under you. The historical outcome for such practices has never been pretty. It is destabilizing to say the least.

The other factor that has to be considered is that the US government is running a 680B and CLIMBING yearly Bar Tab....without regard as to how the bill is going to be paid. If there was a political will to balance the budget TODAY that engines momentum could not be stopped until at least 2025.

The upshot of these two factors is that the (Global) system is becoming evermore destabilized and fraught with risk. Both Equities and RE markets performance bears no relationship to economic realities. Both of these markets are distortions brought about as a result of Federal Reserve manipulations of currency and interest rates. This is in the face of political dysfunction in the USA and elsewhere. There is simply no political will nor civil will to face reality. Peoples expectations are out of sync with reality. However slowly it might be, that reality is slowly taking shape by becoming normative. The instability in society that people are experiencing today would have been unheard of a decade ago.

In a conversation with a relative this week our Depression/Greatest Generation parents were discussed with relationship to how they were brought up. For them the normative was DOING WITHOUT. They simply did not have the means nor where with all to have anything. It was a hard scrabble existence. For them having money meant having the security to be able to buy food and provide a roof over their heads. When they had the opportunity after WW2 to work they saved their money. Which is unlike the succeeding generations where Money is something that you go out and BUY SOMETHING with. This later mindset is the hubris that comes with the prosperity of flush economic times. For what does it matter the barrel of prosperity is endless. If you do not have cash, no matter there is credit. Which is in fact an obligation upon FUTURE earnings...the money has been spent before you even get it. This then constricts future spending and ultimately the DEMAND CURVE. This is essentially why economies remain evermore sluggish and moribund. As debt rises economies become evermore sluggish...that is why Humpty Dumpty CAN NOT BE PUT BACK TOGETHER AGAIN>..

Americans have traded in their future for some cheap plastic crap made in China. One hopes you are all happy campers.

look up time value of money" - you need to put money away for retirement and crate a nest egg. you might need to fund you own medical costs. Take advantage of time - pay yourself first. As you grow older and life gets in the way, you will need to save for college as well. if you have the discipline - you will be alright.


just remember, life gets in the way - what you think you have - what you earmarked for one thing, goes on something else. However, if you saved, you will will have it.

good luck!

FACT OF LIFE...REALITY IS:

Economic STASIS and STAGNATION was bought after 2008 at the price of:

1. Monetizing Debt

2. The DOUBLING of FEDERAL DEBT.

There has been NO ECONOMIC recovery to speak of, especially when considering that what economic growth has occurred mirrors population increase. Then one has to consider that all that new money has to go somewhere? Equities and a RE recovery...(the FED bought nearly a trillion in mortgage backed securities). The alternative to FED action was rather bleak, and as stated better the devil you know than the one you don't.

Distortions in markets and economies eventually correct themselves. The greater the distortion the greater the stresses upon the system as the system tries to maintain an equilibrium. Eventually reality wins out and systems correct to regain equilibrium. Also the greater the distortion the quicker the snap back to equilibrium can occur. Equate it to the falling of a house of cards. War in this instance becomes a distinct possibility as well as a break in in the dam of confidence in the FED. As for the loss of confidence there are the seven phases of acceptance.

Trump becomes the HOPE of the outsider figure that can right the problems that the insiders are unable to correct. It was more or less preordained that he would fail. The dynamics of which have been enumerated previously.

REALITY CAN NOT BE DENIED.

Reality is that the Great post WW2 ERA of economic prosperity and plenty is over and the USA in particular is in a reversion to the mean of human history. Which is hallmarked by a small number of the very wealthy, a smallish MC and a large working poor class. Unfortunately the Great Enlightenment is over as human natures propensity for barbarity and intolerance (of other peoples views) takes precedence in time of stress. . Liberalism has the requisite blind adherence to an ideology that drowns out rationality. As many are now finding Liberalism is the new face of FASCISM with their growing hysterical intolerance. .

The OP asked for opinions on how to invest but did not ask for an economic forecast.
Try and put your feet in his shoes and establish what you would do if you were him.
Where does he put his money?

"As safe as houses"

Nothing wrong with doing nothing at the moment. Build up your cash, you'll get your day to put it in play.

Stick to index funds.
Do not hire any FP.

Do yourself a favor and go to Bogleheads.org as suggest by several already. You can do this yourself and the FAQs and forums are high quality. There are numerous posts from others like you seeking advice. My high level recommendations:
1) Live below your means
2) Diversify your portfolio (Bogleheads.org can help)
3) Keep your expense ratios low (Vanguard is terrific)
4) Stay the course - don't panic; opportunistically rebalance
5) Keep learning (for your career and regarding your finances)

Good luck!




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pass on life insurance - you don't meed that yet.

Even though you have maxed out the 401k match, you can still put more into the 401k without the match. Costs will be low and investments are usually safer than going to an investment "counselor" who turns out to be the Wolf of Wall Street. Diversify with different levels of risk.

Yes, index funds, diversified. Vanguard is good, they are such a major player now as to make markets. Plus low load.

1) I would not invest if you still have debt
2) mutual funds are a great choice like a Roth
3) don't take advise from broke people!

My 2 cents

You have to know whence the ground upon which you walk to know what shoes to wear hence forth. A pair of Gucci loafers is not going to to keep you in good stead when traversing through the Grand Canyon.

Pshaw, away with you Oaf....

When Joe Kennedy heard Cab drivers and Shoe Shine Boys talking about investing in the Market in 29 he got the fk out...he had saved his fortune for a few months later the market came crashing down like a ton of bricks. It never really recovered until the Nifty Fifty 1960's. Then came another long dormancy until the 1980's and the Reagan revival of sunniness where business became lean and mean..which with the END of the Cold War REVALUATION of assets paid dividends in the 90's.. Entering upon the New Millennium the Equity markets crashed and burned with the deflation OF THE DOT COM BUBBLE. The Equity market from 2000 through 2012 was a stagnant market with a very thin return. During this period the economy of the USA was LACKLUSTER where RE construction accounted for 16% of the US economy. That expansion of credit fueled the economy while forming the RE Bubble which blew up in 2008. The NEW BUBBLE that has formed is bigger and more inclusive than any of the previous bubbles as it is a Sovereign Debt Bubble. Equities is only a symptom of that Bubble as it is the vehicle with which the cash flows into. Pension funds need an 8% return to stay solvent.

Going forward there is LITTLE CERTAINTY with the attendant increasing risk that any of the traditional and well worn paths to wealth accruing is viable any longer. The very institutions that people rely upon have been undermined. In this environment one has to be nimble and quick with a continuing awareness of the shifting sands AND knowing what it means. If you do not have knowledge of a particular market DO NOT INVEST in Fiber Optics stock. You are at the very least a chump, a rube a sucker. The best course of action is to educate yourself and that takes time and constant awareness. Meanwhile build a cash position, but beware even the Dollar STANDARD valuation of a Money Market fund HAS BEEN BROKEN. FDIC is essentially worthless in any run on the banks. Short term TREASURIES is the best bet as if the US govt goes than nothing will be left standing anyway. If you ar bound and determined to invest in Equities, look to those that have NOT MISSED PAYING A DIVIDEND for decades (like Exxon, Chevron, BP etc). They may not be glamorous nor stellar performers but you are buying an income stream with stability and capital appreciation. It is better to buy your own shares than to invest in Mutual Funds especially BOND FUNDS. Principle is at risk in BOND FUNDS which you many never be able to recover if interest rates climb dramatically.

To become an astute Equities investor one has to put the effort in. Being a successful Equities trader is based upon acquiring knowledge of how markets work and applying that knowledge. Day trading is better left to people who are degenerate Gamblers who belong in GA. Stock Brokers are glorified used car salesmen who only tout the Company/Partay line of what to try and sell the Rubes (you) and whose knowledge may range from less than zero to being playas. You will not get into seeing a Playa as a walk in. Buyer beware.

If you are smart start watching the SP 500 and Nasdq...along with the 10 year Treasury. Start tuning into CNBC, Blomberg or FAUX Business news as your new home...you after time will get a pulse. If you are not willing to do that just keep watching football and stay the fk out of Equities and Bonds.

BTW CNBC in the morning used to quote me.

In this economic and political environment one has to also invest in other asset classes as a diversification which acts as a hedge. One can not COUNT on the INSTITUTIONS anymore as they have been undermined . To that end Silver, Gold and a plot of land to provide for your own sustenance might be prudent. Silver and Gold only buys time. Any shake out is going to be forever for anyone who is alive today. Paul Ryan has said, "There will be a crisis." So it is not an IF but a when situation.

My contribution is, job well done! Very few at 25 are actively saving for retirement. My wife and I got a late start, and we're still probably years ahead of many of our peers. As usual I thoroughly agree with Paul (Seahawk). Be realistic with your expectations and abilities, and reassess often. Personally I don't have the time to dedicate to being thorough with individual investments so I heavily utilize my 401k, Roth IRA, and mutual funds. We also aggressively avoid debt and are pushing hard to pay off our home (only debt) within the next 5 years.

My only unique contribution would be to also read or listen to Dave Ramsey, I have really benefited from his conservative, self sacrificing approach to financial management. I really embrace his philosophy of "live like no one else so you can live like no one else". Avoiding the temptations of our material society is a great first step towards long term wealth.

Don't go our and buy aircool cars. :)

I am a big fan of real estate. Sit and hang tight and see about saving for down payment on your first home (if you don't already own one). You can always rent out a room to someone and recoup some of that money and reinvest it in something. When your equity has build up to a certain point, you can draw upon that.

What state are you in?

Some old wealthy man once said to me when I was a young man like you, "all rich guys own real estate". He had me thinking about that for a long time. I eventually bought my house at 29 and leveraged against that to make more 10 years later

If you do not understand that it is NOT a matter of IF but a matter of when a crisis is going to come, you according to Darwinian logic will not survive. Nothing has been fixed, there has essentially been no recovery. Just stasis and stagnation in the face of ever greater governmental need to pay it's increasing obligations. There was one factoid that I presented ^^^ that should have scared the piss outa you. That fact is the Dollar Standard for Money Market funds was broken in 08. Nothing is sacrosanct anymore.

That is the environment you are living in and there is NO WAY to run away from it. You are along for the E ticket ride on the Titanic for better or worse.

The Big government entitlement state is broken and has gone BK. It was a reflection of a prosperous nation where the politicians are mere reflections of the larger society. . For this is a reflection of the Americans peoples expectations of being a prosperous nation which no longer matches the exigencies of the situation. Your seeming prosperous lifestyle is being bought at the price of going deeper into debt. This year 680B. This facade of prosperity has been going on since 1968.

This is reality 101, and there is no getting around it except through denial and delusion.

Jamie Dimon of Chase has recently said, "The politicians in DC are "stupids" and what we need to unleash the powerhouse of the US economy are the "right policies." "That corporations sic should be a bit wiser and think in terms of what is good for the nation and not just themselves." He further said that the Bank have recovered and are healthy. While the banks maybe healthy the rest of the economy staggers along. Just ask our correspondent Wolf about the global guitar business that he is in. In this it is not a Clinton, GW, BO or Trump thing but the trajectory of history where the mindset of the expectations of the American people plays an important factor. In avoidance of the hard choices to be made events will dictate the terms of the new reality to be made.

There is a reason why those "right policies" haven't been enacted and there is a reason why all the kings men and kings horses through the tried and true tools of juicing an economy have not worked MR DIMON.

The underlying reason is that the Global Economy of Consumerist Scale has reached it's extremis...it has run out of people with the where with all to consume, run out of cash and now out of credit to consume. The obligation (servicing of debt) on future earnings has become so great that that consumers can no longer expand their consumption. We have reached the tipping point of that delicate balance...

THEY DON"T GET IT...

So with this ^^^ firmly planted in your mind first and foremost for it is an UNDENIABLE REALITY what the fk do ya do? That is a good question because with uncertainty going forward there is no clear path to nirvana. Essentially there is no answer. You puts your money down and takes yo chances.

One has thought that you have to play the existing game of musical chairs as if the music will never end while fully being cognizant that the music can stop suddenly at any time. To that end one needs to think about alternative ways to survive. You have to understand that the game is fraught with peril and risk unlike any time in history for the peril is GLOBAL.

The old game of Equities ain't the same no more. With the Fed guaranteeing the economy with an activist policy in 2012 the Equity markets have been up up and away. Any corrections have been short lived where Traders do not want to be caught short by being out of the Market. That is why the SP 500 climbed 40 points in 3 days this week. Also one thinks that there was some short covering in there as Traders were betting/hedging on a market at all time highs correcting because of economic and geopolitical woes. When the weakness was resolved and calmness restored bam we are right back at the old highs.

If you notice the SP 500 on Friday inter-day hit 2480 which if not an all time high was real close. It closed off the days high at apx 2474. The reason why there was some selling is that Traders didn't want the risk of being long on Equities over a holiday weekend where events might transpire. On Tuesday expect another retest of the 2480 level as there is momentum for pushing higher (unless something happens). The Equities do need to push through the 2480 level and close on new highs this coming week. Otherwise it will probably trade sideways with a downward bias of uncertainty. The FED guarntee keeps Equities buoyant which is out of sync with economic realities.

Equities have taken 5 years to climb to the rarefied air of all time highs. With some extended periods of time where it has trended sideways. Equities are pretty solid/stable (comfortable) at this level because of this. The caveat of course is the unpredictability of events.

At one point you could make Trades on the trading ranges/ Today with the continual upward bias you makes your money by holding. When a correction comes yo have to be very nimble to get out and step back in to catch the rerise or you miss the boat. Three days and you miss 40 SP 500 points...Years have gone by where the SP hasn't risen 40 points.

The outlying factor which I have to consider is the volatility/speed of the recent moves and what that might signify? That is the imponderable unknown at this time?

This is good advice.

Buy real estate in a good neighborhood, then improve it, rather than wear it out.
My wife and I have made more solid profit there than any other investment or asset.

It ain't too hard to figure out what happened in the Wall Street hood. The Boyz got nervous when Turnip plans are turning to a big fat zero, they wanted to lock in profits so they started to Short the market to lock in their profits on the rise since November. Then with Over Bought market the markets started to drop, when the Market stabilized back to a neutral position and things calmed down a bit (the bottom was formed) and they saw that transpire for a coupla days they quickly started to cover their shorts to lock in their downside profits reinvesting their swag to catch a rising market...So they doubled their fun and doubled their pleasure on both the down and upside of the trading range.

That is the past dynamic...From the 70's through the 00's housing proved to be a piggy bank for home owners. A real gud investment. Prior to the 70's housing was an overhead expense a place to live. With modest appreciation. You have to understand we was in an INFLATIONARY ENVIRONMENT. Today it is quite the opposite, it is a deflationary environment even though they try as they might to resuscitate inflation with massive debasement of the currency. This alone shows how massive the forces of deflation are.

In 2012 RE was crumbling...in September the FED embarked upon QE3 a tenet of which was to BUY 45B a MONTH in Mortgage backed securities. By doing that it relieved the pressure on banks to liquidate their massive inventory of foreclosed homes. Thus shortening the supply of homes on the market which stabilized RE prices and allowed them to recover. The FED eventually bought around a Trillion USD of mortgage backed securities. Which they is still sitting on.

without the requisite inflationary forces in the market RE will return to being a overhead expense with modest appreciation.


Your take is a gud example of a mindset that is based upon past experiences which are no longer operable. You expect past experience to continue on as if nothing has happened in the meantime which has changed the dynamic. 2008 changed the dynamic.

Read this first.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/968931-joys-being-landlord-part927.html

As a landlord of commercial property I can tell you it is not all roses. We were called out at 1 AM January 1st because someone broke down the building's front door. The building is in a great neighborhood - right across from a church.
Last month our tenant noticed wet carpet in an office room adjacent to the HVAC room. Found a small leak in the AC evaporator tray that had been going on for who knows how many months. Had to replace drywall and carpet and treat wall studs for mold. RE is not a hands-off investment. Be prepared to be involved 24/7/365 if you really want to make money at it. Stuff happens at the most inconvenient times.

When I recently told a friend about one investment we made, his response was that I should buy a rental house. Having done that some decades back, I told him I'd rather be eaten by a goat and krapped over a cliff than ever be a landlord again.

The only real property I'm interested in is the property I live on.

But to each his own. I have another friend who enjoys the full time job of managing and caring for his 32 residential rentals. Some homes, some multi unit. He's 76 now, and it's a full time job. I pity him, for his time really isn't his own.

Tabby, you may be right about your doomsday scenario. Why should I worry? At age 73, I've had a good life. Not that many years to worry about a doomsday. Now, why discourage this young man?

You know..just maybe..you could be wrong.