Electrical question for the brain trust
 

Mrs WD wants black outlets and covers in the new kitchen. I HATE tamper resistant (IOW use resistant) outlets. The only round black outlets I can find without the tamper resistant defect are 20 amp. The circuit is wired with 12 ga wire and has a 15 amp breaker in the box. Will installing 20 amp outlets cause a problem down the road? Worst case as far as I can see is maybe someone will plug in something big and trip the breaker.
What say you?

Try Home depot, Model # CR15-E Internet #301387040 ?

If it's in the kitchen it's required to be 20A circuit GFCI protected. If the work is being inspected the receptacles would be required to be tamperproof unless they are 5'6" above the floor.

The recpt type and wire size don't matter , the breaker does. I'm not cool with 15A to a kitchen space. Appliances such as bread makers,toasters,coffee makers, griddles when on the same circuit get you over 15 in a hurry.

While it will work fine, it will not be to code. 12G wire is fine for 20A (14 is not)...but you need to change the breaker. I would upgrade both at the same time.

If the issue is to "hide" the outlets, try looking to mount outlet strips under the cabinets. About 20 years ago, I had my kitchen re-done and I hated the idea of putting outlets on the beautiful walls. I had my contractor install both under cabinet lighting and under cabinet outlet strips. When we had our kitchen here redone, I did the same thing.

The 20a will be fine on a 15a. circuit. If you have an overload situation the breaker will trip before things meltdown. As long as the wiring and breaker is sized appropriately for the circuit I wouldn't hesitate to put the 20a. receptacles in.

"Worst case as far as I can see is maybe someone will plug in something big and trip the breaker."
You hit the nail on the head. It's the breaker that matters. You don't want a 20a breaker on wire that's only good for 15 amps. The wire could potentially meltdown before the breaker would trip.

Man, I was all over Lowes, Menards, and Home Depot's sites and I did not find that. It is just what I'm looking for. Thanks!

Sounds interesting, but this is a remodel and there are already several switch, outlet, and combo boxes in the walls. I do NOT want to rewire the whole kitchen, just move a couple of switches and turn everything black to match the new tile.

I don't care about code, I just don't want tthose damn tamper proof outlets.

Now to find some 3/8 box extenders. :(

for tile? we use these: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Electrical-Box-Extender-BE1-2/202708650

You don't care about code until you want to sell.

That looks like it. Thanks. I looked it up and they do makes them in 4 gang size, so it looks like I’ll be good. Our tile guy recommended little spacers that go under the screws but they look pretty flimsy to me. I like these things better.

Kitchen circuits. No more than two receptacles to a circuit. 20 amp. 12 ga. wire. minimum 4 receptacles. Within 1 meter of sink is GFCI. Kitchen receptacles do not need to be arc fault. Tamper proof is not required if the appliance is plugged in and receptacle is considered inaccessible. If you do not care about code, then you should consider cancelling your fire insurance. Do not paint your receptacles and believe me or not, in the long run , it is cheaper to do it right.

you are right but also wrong as is someone else above.

its the WIRE size AND breaker size that matter.

the breaker goes with the wire size. you can have a 15a brkr on 12ga wire.
you can NOT have a 20a brkr on 14ga wire

you CAN NOT (or should not) put a 20a OUTLET on 14ga wire with a 15 or 20a brkr
this case the outlet matches the wire size.


just remember, the breaker is there to protect the wiring, nothing else. the outlet limits you from connecting a single load that pulls more current than the WIRE can deliver.

I prefer to run 12g with 20a outlets as the outlets are a bit beefier.
not an electrician btw.

Really? What is the fire hazard of tamper proof vs non- tamper proof receptacles above a kitchen counter? :rolleyes:

It is in reference to "I don't care about code" which implies you may not follow code. Primarily, your safety is my concern but resale of your home will be affected when an inspector finds discrepancies in your electrical. It is responsible and cheaper to do it right while you have the walls open rather to have to fix once finished. Again, Its you and your families safety. As I have said in a previous post of yours , others will read this and think its ok to install electrical devices as they see fit to alleviate nuisance or cost.

Not even close to the 2014 NEC. Or the 2011 version. IN the USA. You may be under another code.

The CEC follows the NEC and I am quoting the 2015 Canadian Electrical Code. The 2018 code book is just now being issued. Regardless of which code, protection is the focus of my statement and I am reinforcing the importance of qualified installers. Not to derail, but it would be interesting if you could outline the equivalent rules in your area so others will be informed also.

Well, for starters, every receptacle in the kitchen must be protected by a GFCI as well as the laundry. A recep is required over any counter with a wall behind 2 feet or longer and must not be more than 4' apart. Recep's on each side of the sink must not be more than 2' from edge of said sink. Islands and peninsulas require at least one recep but could be more depending on dimensions.

Individual circuits required for DW, GD, Micro, hood, fridge, trash compactor and could be more depending on any one item's electrical draw. Not less than 2 convenience circuits but they are not limited to 1 recep per circuit. Lighting is separate.

This is all ad lib from memory, not the way to approach electrical work. So any corrections are welcome. And I didn't even touch on AFCI's which are now required in all areas of the home living space except the baths. The garage, crawl space, attic, and outdoors are not considered living spaces but sunrooms are.

Correct zeke. This has been discussed before. It also MEETS CODE to use 15a receptacles on 12 gauge 20 amp breakers.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/983501-confused-about-nec-standard.html

If this statement from Mr. dyount is correct, dependent on interpretation I may be inadvertently in compliance.

"If it's in the kitchen it's required to be 20A circuit GFCI protected. If the work is being inspected the receptacles would be required to be tamperproof unless they are 5'6" above the floor."

It is almost exactly 5'6" from the floor to the edge of the counter, and then diagonally up to the center of the receptacle.

At the end of day 2 I have made some progress. The nexus of this project is Mrs WD's desire to move the garbage disposal switch from the right side of the sink to the left side. as well as replace all the ivory colored devices with black colored devices to go with her tile scheme.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1521749950.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1521749950.jpg

I took out the disposal switch and pulled the wire into the basement and replaced the small steel old work boxes from the last remodel (in 2001) with deeper plastic boxes. I still have to fill the hole next to the box.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1521749950.jpg

There was one receptacle to the left of the sink. Again, I yanked out the small steel old work box and replaced it with a deep 3-gang box. I replaced the outlet with a black one and added the switchs for the disposal and the under counter lights.

Dedicated circuits are pretty much the same here and are limited to that specific appliance. Refrig can have a clock receptacle. Arc fault is for all receptacles here except sump pump if labelled, kitchen counters, fridge , lighting , central vacuum , C/M and Smoke detectors, and bathroom. If the garage is attached to the home it is included in the definition of "dwelling unit" and requires Arc fault. GFCI here is for locations near water sources and outside under 8 feet high. I am told the 2018 rules for Arc fault will include lighting but cannot verify. I hope it doesn.t because my cost for one combination Arc fault is 75 dollars. Thank you very much for the comparison. I should have stated I was quoting from the CEC, my apologies to all for the confusion.

I don't see a GFCI outlet in the photos...

Tell me about it, my wife is always "can you move that light fixture? Can you move that switch box?"

And I'm like.... sure, but I will have to rip open the wall, run new conduit, and then patch up the drywall.

I totally agree with the safety issue. A friend of mine converted a garage to a recording studio and roped me into doing the electrical (in exchange for studio time). He had an electrician friend inspect my work, his friend said "well, it will work but it is way overbuilt".

I would be a little concerned about not using a GFI near water. Personalty any bathroom/kitchen on my property have nothing but GFI's in every outlet.

On the other hand when you want to sell later it is easy to install GFI outlets.

Per 2011 NEC (newest I have handy) exemption is 5-1/2' above the floor. Not diagonal across the counter. I believe the tamper-proofs started with 2008 code. If you are swapping receptacles I'm not sure that would trigger a necessary upgrade. However GFI is a good idea and has been required for 30+ years. It' not like a kidd is going to climb on the counter and insert paper clips.

If you had kids or grand-kids, changing the low ones might be worthwhile.

I see grounds twisted together.... you do have a wirenut or crimp on that?

I think about those hand held blenders always used near the sink. A GFCI is basically a window transformer that encircles the hot and the common. If no leakage then the flux cancells each other out and no magnetic field is generated in the transformer. If there is leakage to ground, then there will be residual flux in the transformer thus setting up a magnetic field which pulls the metal solenoid and breaks the circuit. This happens almost instantly and has saved innumerable lives. I love guitars. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...94fe7d110e.jpg

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk

Tough crowd.
You don't need one in every outlet, just one for every circuit.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1521756688.jpg

Look way over on the right.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1521756688.jpg

See it? It's the 1st outlet in kitchen circuit #1 - the one I'm currently working on.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1521756688.jpg

Here is the first outlet on kitchen circuit #2. This was all in place before I started. The room was remodeled in 2001 and was in compliance then. All kitchen outlets are GFCI protected.

You are correct, sorry I misunderstood. Thought you were removing all GFI's, didn't know you were daisy chaining off the main GFI.

Yep! One GFCI protecting the circuit. Just hit the test button to make sure it takes out all the outlets near the sink.

Yes, crimp collars. They were big and wouldn't work without a fat wire bundle to go around. Its all i had.

Update for anyone who cares.
When they remodeled in 2001 they used small steel old work boxes, the kind with the steel straps that you bend over. All of the box extenders I've been able to locate are for boxes that are 1/4 inch taller than these. I can modify them I guess, but the extenders are $1.44 each and new deep plastic boxes are $1.89. Guess I'm going to replace all the boxes. The new boxes have screws long enough for 1/2" drywall and I'll have drywall plus the thickness of the tile, so new, longer screws will be needed. Amazing how a seemingly simple job can cascade into such a time and money suck.