1986 FBI shootout, what if?

flipper35 · flipper35's Garage

All the crap in PARF got me thinking as to how differently the 1986 shootout with Platt and Maddox would have been had the agents had the current issue sidearms?

Platt and Maddox may have used something different, but they had some pretty serious firepower already. Would they have been stopped sooner with the modern semi-auto and cartridge?

svandamme · svandamme's Garage

the current FBI agents have the current issue side arms... because of Platt & Maddox

So obviously the outcome would have been different since the changes were based on that specific case study. If not it would mean the FBI was absolutely incompetent at analysing that shoot out.

the main shortcoming was some folks showed up with .38 revolvers which were terribly inadequate.

P&M weren't that massively armed just the Mini14 that gave em the upper edge.
Any rifle would have given them the same edge against the FBI's handguns and shotguns.

the real gamechanger was North Hollywood, that's where the local PD's learned that they need AR15's and 556 on hand.

So any shootout that happens now, you'll have regular cops on scene in no time, with massive firepower
It's a whole new ball game because of that.

flipper35 · flipper35's Garage

I knew they moved to 10mm because of Miami, and then subsequently to .40S&W instead of the then current .38 and 9mm.

P&M had two .357 magnums as opposed to the agents .38spc and a .223 semi auto.

I guess I question if they are as good at marksmanship now as then because they now have more rounds to expend should they miss, causing them to rush the shots more. I would assume the special agents are. I just wonder how different the outcome would be.

North Hollywood police dropped the ball earlier when they found the two with the full auto weapons in the car and let them go. The armored car driver was a quick thinker.

URY914 · URY914's Garage

The Miami shootout was made into a pretty good made for TV movie. It's on YouTube if you want to watch it. I watched it a few months ago. There is also a lot of info about it on the web.

John Rogers · 04-06-2018, 12:48 PM

We had two FBI agents at the range a couple months ago when we were on the safety officer duty day. They were on vacation in San Diego and besides using their own side arms had several borrowed long guns, actual full auto M4's. Then the young lady who was shooting had a semi auto go "ca-blam" and I walked over to see what it was. It was a Sig 226 in 357 SIG and it reminded me of mine before I sold it several years ago. She said it was her "personal defense" gun! I guess now they are well armed.

flipper35 · flipper35's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by URY914

The Miami shootout was made into a pretty good made for TV movie. It's on YouTube if you want to watch it. I watched it a few months ago. There is also a lot of info about it on the web.

Mas Ayoob had a good writeup on it back when it happened.

id10t · 04-06-2018, 01:52 PM

Didn't Jeff Cooper say something about a pistol being what you used when you have to fight your way to a rifle?

HardDrive · 04-06-2018, 03:44 PM

What amazes me about the whole incident is that the perps kept shooting after massive damage. Not hyped up on drugs either.

KFC911 · 04-06-2018, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by id10t

Didn't Jeff Cooper say something about a pistol being what you used when you have to fight your way to a rifle?

Sounds like him....and you know it would have been .45 ACP too

. One of my tennants used to keep a Mini-14 in the trunk of his cruiser when on duty...not your typical LEO though...former trained sniper.

Buckterrier · 04-09-2018, 02:54 PM

One thing also to remember. Especially back then basically an FBI agent was nothing more than an accountant or lawyer. They didn't have much more than basic firearm training and little if any tactical training. That combined with the weapons carried it's no wonder the whole thing went south.

id10t · 04-09-2018, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC911

Sounds like him....and you know it would have been .45 ACP too

. One of my tennants used to keep a Mini-14 in the trunk of his cruiser when on duty...not your typical LEO though...former trained sniper.

Friend who became a cop in '92 had both a 12ga pump (dept issued) and a AR15 (personal) in the trunk.

After enjoying about 1k rounds through my Glock mag fed AR9, I'm wondering if that may make the perfect companion for a cruised based cop. Short stock, short barrel (10"), no real increase in velocity/power but a massive increase in accuracy, feeding the same ammo from the same mags as the pistol... 6" circle at 100 yards is easy.

Tobra · Tobra's Garage

My buddy is LEO and I have been trying to talk him into getting an 9 mm carbine. would be a hoot with those 30 round stick magazines, pretty cheap to run it too.

10 inch barrel will have a little more punch than 2 will, won't it?
Balllistics by the inch looks like you pick up a few hundred FPS with a carbine vs a compact pistol

id10t · 04-10-2018, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tobra

My buddy is LEO and I have been trying to talk him into getting an 9 mm carbine. would be a hoot with those 30 round stick magazines, pretty cheap to run it too.

10 inch barrel will have a little more punch than 2 will, won't it?
Balllistics by the inch looks like you pick up a few hundred FPS with a carbine vs a compact pistol

Until you get to non-tax stamp length (16") in which case you are back down to about what a 4.5=5" barrel duty pistol gives you.

The big advantage though is accuracy. While I don't shoot nearly as much pistol as I do rifle, my AR9 lets me shoot teh same size groups at 100 yards that I do with a pistol at 15 yards.

flipper35 · flipper35's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckterrier

One thing also to remember. Especially back then basically an FBI agent was nothing more than an accountant or lawyer. They didn't have much more than basic firearm training and little if any tactical training. That combined with the weapons carried it's no wonder the whole thing went south.

Two things of note. Back in the gangster days the FBI had gunslingers like Delf Bryce and have had them ever since. In Miami they had made good hits center mass as they were taught. They just weren't effective.

And one of the reasons I hate glasses for sports and dirt bikes is they don't stay put. I wonder if Grogan had contacts would he have made some rounds count.

Oh, a P/PS-90 would be a great cruiser weapon.

Rickysa · 04-10-2018, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Would they have been stopped sooner with the modern semi-auto and cartridge?

I have tried and tried to find a police report (FBI?) that examined this question. It involved a shoot out between LEOs and (I believe) and individual on some from of drug that made him "invincible". Through radiological examination, it was shown that the .223 was going thru-and thru with little effect, while what brought the subject down was the higher caliber handgun rounds that broke bone etc. Interesting read, but I have lost it in the net-o-sphere.