Baby Alfie

[Rickysa]

Do a quick google and then please say a prayer.

But his parents simply wanted to be able to transfer him from a British hospital to an Italian hospital to seek experimental care.

And the British court system refused.

Citing the expertise of Evans' doctors, the courts declared that Evans' best interests are not served by his parents' attempts to save his life. Instead, the little boy would be deprived of life support, left to die without oxygen or water. The ruling, the judge said, "represents the final chapter in the life of this extraordinary little boy." But that chapter was written by the British bureaucracy, not by his parents -- the ones who will have to engrave his epitaph and visit his grave.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/29859/who-controls-your-kids-lives-ben-shapiro

Italy has granted him citizenship and the Pope has a medical helicopter waiting at the hospital to bring him to a Vatican hospital as soon as the Brit .gov gives the nod. They won't.

[pwd72s]

Government knows best...arrgh!

[pitargue]

This little boy has defied the odds in surviving this long. Amazing parents with what they are going through.

Pray for #alfieevans #alfiearmy #alfiearmy16

[Rickysa]

surviving this long

with his parents giving him mouth-to-mouth because the hospital refuses to give him oxygen.

[WolfeMacleod]

It's sad, for sure.

The whole situation leaves me wondering: What would his quality of life be, if he were to continue living?

Also... consider the medical costs the family would have accrued if they were here in the US.

[sammyg2]

Below was my post re: Charlie Gard, a very similar case:

From what I have read there is no cure for mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome.
Best case is a temporary reduction in symptoms, IOW a prolonged death.
They can't cure it, they can only slow the death. His muscles slowly die, his brain slowly dies, he slowly dies. He is in the advanced stages and is very near death now. That makes the treatment even less effective.


Now I don't know ANYONE who hates a nanny state more than i do, or hates the idea of some A-holes telling someone else what they can and can't do with their child.

But aside from that, I really think if the PARENTS could look at it with reason and not emotion, they might realize it's simply a bad idea.
But it should ultimately be their bad decision to make.

In that case, as with this one, I believe that the parents are being irresponsible by prolonging the suffering of their child to ease their own pain. I have trouble understanding any other reason why parents would want to prolong the suffering of their child.

But ... I also believe it should be up to them, assuming of course that they are spending their own money and not expecting others to pay for their selfishness.

[varmint]

Originally Posted by WolfeMacleod

It's sad, for sure.

The whole situation leaves me wondering: What would his quality of life be, if he were to continue living?

Also... consider the medical costs the family would have accrued if they were here in the US.

Perhaps you should tell us where you want these leading questions to go.

[Rickysa]

prolonging the suffering

Sammy, I agree with 99.9% of what you post, but don't you think withholding food, water and air isn't increasing his suffering? Unless somebody has a power of attorney to issue a DNR, shouldn't basic care be provided? Isn't that what Hospice is all about?

I don't think, in this case, it's the parent's wanting to ease their pain, but moreso to let their child live (however long that is). He smiles when he sees them.

Not picking a fight or anything, just pleasant discourse.

[varmint]

Apparently the British government thinks it has the power to issue a DNR. They have cut the parents and a number of doctors out of the decision making process.

More to say when this reaches parf.

[wdfifteen]

I don't see a reason not to just release the child to his parents as long as British taxpayers have no further interest. If taxpayers would potentially be on the hook for subsequent medical expenses, I think the decision is the correct one.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Rickysa

Sammy, I agree with 99.9% of what you post, but don't you think withholding food, water and air isn't increasing his suffering? Unless somebody has a power of attorney to issue a DNR, shouldn't basic care be provided? Isn't that what Hospice is all about?

I don't think, in this case, it's the parent's wanting to ease their pain, but moreso to let their child live (however long that is). He smiles when he sees them.

Not picking a fight or anything, just pleasant discourse.

He smiles when he sees his parents?
I guess it depends on which side we believe. The impression I got from everything I read was quite a bit more gloomy.
Maybe the doctors and hospital are painting a gloomy picture to support their position. Maybe the parents are in denial and pretending the child is doing better than he really is.
I don't know for sure. But I tend to believe the side with less emotional influence and more rational thinking. I will admit it is possible that the doctors, the hospital, the judges, and I are all mistaken. But i contend not likely.

If the details below are actually true, will you still maintain the same perspective?
I am an insensitive bastage. I have that luxury as I am a stranger and I am not his parents, thank God.
But when I strip all the emotion out of it and look at it logically, I see parents who cannot deal with grief and are not doing what is in the best interest of the child IMO.
I still contend it's their decision, when I or anyone else agrees or not.

A High Court judgment of 20 February 2018 stated that a MRI scan taken in August 2017 revealed that "70% of Alfie's brain had been destroyed", a fourth scan taken in February 2018 showed "almost total destruction of Alfie's brain, with fluid identical to water or Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) now present where brain matter should be". Following the conclusion of a court case Royal Courts of Justice in London, Mr Justice Hayden concluded that "I am satisfied that continued ventilatory support is no longer in Alfie’s best interest".

In his High Court judgment of 11 April 2018, Mr Justice Hayden remarked that "by the end of February the connective pathways within the white matter of the brain which facilitate rudimentary sensation – hearing, touch, taste and sight, had been obliterated. They were no longer even identifiable on the MRI scan".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Evans_case

[pitargue]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I don't see a reason not to just release the child to his parents as long as British taxpayers have no further interest. If taxpayers would potentially be on the hook for subsequent medical expenses, I think the decision is the correct one.

Trying to state some reports that I've read.

The Germans had and the Italians have helicopters on site to take the family away. Bambino Gesù Hospital in Rome will take the child on the request of the pope.

This is simply a case of the state deciding the fate the child over the natural rights of the parents. The father has stated in the latest court hearing that he'd like to have his choice of palliative care, which I believe would be at their home. There are a swarm of police officers at the hospital to, I imagine, prevent others from coming into the hospital as well as preventing the parents from leaving with Alfie. Their police department has put forth a tweet saying they will investigate and prosecute any threats made to the hospital and legal teams involved.

AFAIK, there has been no diagnosis on Alfie's disease. They are speculating on what he has. The Medical Ethics Alliance of the UK has condemned the treatment made by Alder Hays children's hospital. See http://www.medethicsalliance.org.uk/press-release-alfie-evans.html

The latest I've read is now they are starving little Alfie to conclude his life. (Same method used for Terri Schiavo and baby Charlie Gard.) Yet, for the last 2 days, the parents have fed and gave water as well as mouth to mouth breathing to Alfie. It has been reported that when Alfie sees his parents, he gives them a big smile.

Pray for #alfieevans .

[sammyg2]

It depends on what and who we choose to believe.

What's happened to Alfie's brain?
According to the Liverpool Echo, the vast majority of white matter in Alfie’s brain has been wiped out.

Doctors say Alfie has suffered significant brain damage because of the progressive, degenerative condition which has left his brain mostly as water and spinal fluid.

Since then, according to the paper, “destructive” changes have destroyed the pathways which regulate the vital “control structure” in his brain, which are responsible for processing any information, from touch to sound, taste and smell.

Experts say it has also affected the area responsible for being awake and responsive.

A recent scan referred to in court showed that only around 30% of the white matter, “or perhaps less”, remained in Alfie’s brain.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6132947/alfie-evans-degenerative-neurological-condition-brain-italy/

[Por_sha911]

THIS is the reason that most Americans are against Zerocare and/or a single payer system. The gov't has decided to give alfie physician assisted suicide (really, murder). But hey, that'll never happen with Obamacare...

[Iciclehead]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

THIS is the reason that most Americans are against Zerocare and/or a single payer system. The gov't has decided to give alfie physician assisted suicide (really, murder). But hey, that'll never happen with Obamacare...

This isn't an essential characteristic of single payer, it is a characteristic of a government and legal system which believes that the child belongs to them and not the parents.

I think in other jurisdictions the issues may be different, as in the US you'd have the issue about whether the parents could have paid for care to this point if they did not have insurance....i do not see the Canadian system refusing to transfer the child to an organization willing to pay for care as a counterpoint example.

There are no correct answers here in terms of care for the child, the only thing I believe in is that it is the parents decision, not some lousy court or overbearing government. The UK has been slipping into a morass of PC, Islam, horrible government over the last 10 years, they sorely need another Maggie...

Dennis

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by Iciclehead

the only thing I believe in is that it is the parents decision, not some lousy court or overbearing government.

+100

Originally Posted by Iciclehead

The UK has been slipping into a morass of PC, Islam, horrible government over the last 10 years, they sorely need another Maggie...
Dennis

Sincere question: do you think that Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau is heading in that same direction?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

In that case, as with this one, I believe that the parents are being irresponsible by prolonging the suffering of their child to ease their own pain. I have trouble understanding any other reason why parents would want to prolong the suffering of their child.

Apropos to your comment, "“Disagreement between the hospital and his parents resulted in a referral of Alfie's case to the Family Division of the UK High Court for a judge to rule on whether active treatment is in Alfie's best interests.”

I think we have an obligation to protect children from the irrational behavior of their parents and to insure they are acting in the best interest of the child. Parents do not always know what is in the child's best interest. State governments have a history of stepping in to prevent abusive or neglectful treatment by parents. Efforts by parents to withhold treatment have been both rejected and accepted by the courts, so it isn't a settled issue.

There seems to be wide agreement that Alfie is suffering and has no chance of recovery.
"“…, it was suggested that Alfie could be transported to Rome's Bambino Gesu Pediatric Hospital, a Vatican hospital and the main pediatric hospital serving southern Italy, for treatment.
However, a subsequent visit to Alfie and consultation with his doctors led the Roman doctors to conclude that the child's condition is irreversible and untreatable, according to a statement from Alder Hey.

It seems to me flying to baby to a hospital hundreds of miles away to be treated by doctors who believe his condition is irreversible is irrational and abusive. .

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Iciclehead

This isn't an essential characteristic of single payer, it is a characteristic of a government and legal system which believes that the child belongs to them and not the parents.

A child should not be regarded at property my anyone.

[Rickysa]

"If my son dies now, I will instruct lawyers to start private prosecution of every single person who helps to make that happen."

"You say that to withdraw life support from a sick child is a humane medical act — I say it is murder," he wrote. "You say that using force to prevent me from trying to save his life is no more than upholding the law — I say it is murder. You say you are acting in the best interests of the child. Perhaps King Herod used that phrase, too."

Alfie's Dad

https://www.dailywire.com/news/29912/ben-shapiro-sums-moral-hypocrisy-uk-health-system-james-barrett

If you withheld water from your brain damaged toddler, you'd be brought up on child abuse charges. If a British hospital does it, it's just "dying with dignity."

Ben Shapiro

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Iciclehead

the only thing I believe in is that it is the parents decision, not some lousy court or overbearing government.

Dennis

By your logic, or lack thereof, you'd be ok with how the Turpins raised their kids.

'This is depraved conduct,' DA says of California couple accused of torturing kids


The simple fact is in extraordinary situations, outside resources must be engaged in determining what is best for children that are in extraordinary situations.

Another way to look at it, pushing back on God's will won't end well for anyone. Accept it, appreciate the blessings you have been given, and let go enough to accept the natural outcome.

Unless you know better than God of course. Then, by all means.