Nope, not rimfire. From my post: Flies tend to disappear when hit with centerfire .22's and 6mm's. I would use either a varmint weight Remington 700 in .223 with a 36 power Leupold on it, or my custom Lilja barreled Ruger #1 in .220 Swift with a 6.5-20 power Leupold on it.

I was using 53 grain Sierra match bullets in both of them. H4895 in the .223, Reloder 15 in the Swift. Either rifle/load combination would shoot "minute of fly" all day long at 100 yards. I've since given the Remington to my oldest son, but still have the Ruger. I now shoot 60 grain Hornady V-Maxes over IMR4350, a far more effective load at long range, especially in the wind.

Now if you want to play a very, very challenging game, break out that .22 rimfire for some 200 yard shooting. There is nothing better for teaching you to dope the wind.

[QUOTE=A930Rocket;10061483]Here are two pictures from this weekend. I’m still learning to dial the scope in on my AR15 spoon (with a bi-pod).

Does your AR have a Free Floating barrel??

Do some reading:

Interweb search of: sniper training books

I don’t know about the barrel.

I bought it from Palmetto State Armory about 4-5 years ago. It was my first of three spoons.

I’ve got a lot to learn and have been looking online for resources.

[QUOTE=LakeCleElum;10067110]

look at the front of the barrel (obviously after making sure it's unloaded).
The outside of the barrel should not make any contact with the front end on which your bipod mounts.

If the bipod is mounted to the FSB, or if the front end makes contact with the barrel, the barrel will shift POI as it rests it's on the bipod.


top to bottom
non freeflat front end, bipod on the front end, but pushes on barrel
free float front end, bipod on frontend, doesn't push on barrel
free float front end, bipod on the FSB, does push on the barrel

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1528549115.jpg

Well, it was a bust today.

I took off the bi-pod, set up the sand bags and couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.

The crosshairs barely moved, if at all, but I was wearing my prescription sunglasses and it just didn’t look right. The crosshairs and center target were not clear.

I’ll have to try again tomorrow or next weekend with fewer variables changed.

Some things to consider are the more light that can get into your eye, even with a scope the better you will shoot. I use clear glasses and only if the targets are hard to see steel animals will I wear a yellow clip on. The yellow helps with better resolution. If you shot with one type of glasses or none and adjusted the parallax and focus and then put on different glasses the scope will have to be adjusted. I have had a lot of students that were in Iraq and Afghanistan and every day they would "zero" their scopes or sights in case something changed. One of them had his mom send him some new prescription glasses and they gave him fits until his scope got set up.

Have you gotten the trigger pull measured yet? If it can be adjusted then a clean, sharp 2# is what you want.

Thanks, John.

I’ve not had the spoon looked at in any way.

I did talk to the Ranger at the range and he said he could coach me during the week. He was a sniper with the sheriffs swat team.

I’m looking forward to it.

I've got the first type, where the non freeflat front end, bipod on the front end, but pushes on barrel

My .22 LR Marlin wouldn't reach 200yds.

It absolutely will. I don't see it anymore, but I well remember buying standard velocity .22 long rifle rounds as a kid at my local Ernst Hardware store. Yes, they sold them to kids. I could only afford single boxes of 50 rounds, but I well remember the end flap saying "caution: range one mile".

I have a .22 caliber barrel insert that I use in my various .45 caliber black powder cartridge rifles. It fits any .45 - my several .45-70's (.45-2.1"), my .45-90 (.45-2.4"), and my .45-100 (.45-2.6"). It's made by Lee Shaver. We shoot 200 yard matches with these as a very realistic way to practice for 1,000 yard matches with these rifles. It's not easy, but neither is shooting 1,000 yards with peep sighted 19th century rifles shooting cast bullets over black powder.

I'm not saying this is the problem, it's just an amusing thing that springs to mind...

A friend bought a high end AR15 and put a good quality scope on it. But it was shooting all over the place, no consistency.

He researched match quality barrels as this is where the problem lies. I suggested it's shooting so badly that he pulls it apart, inspects for anything odd, cleans it and puts it back together carefully.

He checked his scope mounts and found he hadn't tightend up the screws. hehe.

Agreed, and that's why non adjustable scopes rarely have zero parallax effect.
People think it's parallax free, but it ain't.

My Leupold HAMR at x4 was good, for it, but anything at 9X & 100 yds is probably not going to be truly parallax free for most people

Then you'll have to be very careful how you load the barrel on the bipod.
Everytime you reposition yourself, the POI will probably shift.

To be honest, non free float is not for scoped accurate shooting.

It's good enough for military use, with iron sights, used within the needs of a squad of GI's and their tactics. Think human sized targets, not 1 inch target stickers.
The Designated Marksman in the Squad would have a better rifle that is free floated.

A Shorter barrel in a M4 like carbine will have less shift then the longer barrel of a M16 like rifle, but it will still shift POI.

putting the bipod back a bit can help somewhat because the barrel thins out a bit to the muzzel, and there is more leverage for the bipod, towards the muzzle.

A freefloat ris is not that expensive, starting at 80-100 USD, can even be installed by yourself if you can borrow a good AR barrel wrench and upper vise block from somebody

Don't have an AR, do have a Savage model25 walking varminter in .223.

At 100 yards I was getting patterns and not groups. That was with American Eagle switched to Hornady steel match, groups went from 4-5inches to 1/2-3/4 inches.
my 2 cents.............which can be left on the counter like we all do ;-)

Rich

The free floating barrels and not attaching the bipod to the barrel, ETC are good ideas BUT look at some of the videos of the 1000 yard black powder shooters and notice where they rest the barrel, yes barrel which is usually on their cross sticks. Hum makes you wonder? I shoot all my slug guns at 300 yards with the barrel half way on the cross sticks and can get 1 MOA or better with tang sights. Maybe because I have 1 1/2 in barrel helps a little?

I would suggest getting a spiral note book and list every thing that has been covered here and also on other gun boards then test them and note yes/no did they help. That will end the flailing around and give you accurate results. Remember to shoot 20 shots minimum, no wind and on a rest of some sort so you are not the issue.

Yes, we rest the barrel itself on our cross sticks. The key is to find the "harmonic dead spot" of the barrel in question. To do this, I hang the rifle from the wrist or pistol grip area of the stock, muzzle down. Then, listening very carefully, I ping the barrel with a small plastic hammer, starting at the muzzle and working towards the breach, pinging it every inch or so. It will ring like a tuning fork until you hit it on its harmonic dead spot, where it will then make a dull thud. Continuing towards the breach, it will begin to ring once again. I mark the dead spot by wrapping a piece of masking tape around it.

This may or may not work with lighter barrels and higher velocity, higher intensity cartridges. I've never tried it. All of my heavy barreled bolt guns are free floated. Interestingly, though, I find a bit of fore end pressure makes my big bore dangerous game rifles settle down and shoot a bit better.

I will heartily second this advice - it's some of the best you have been given. Take notes. Be methodical. Write down everything you try, everything you change, and the results on target. Otherwise you will soon be chasing your tail, overwhelmed with good - and not so good - advice, and losing track of what had what affect.

And fire a a number fouling shots before you start taking measurements. It's purely my own thoughts, but I believe fouling shots warm the barrel up so it's expanded to it's more usual shooting spec's.

My high end shutzen target rifle is a 22 short. And my understanding is it was used for 100 yard matches.

Jeff, in your opinion...

My Sako .223 with slow twist barrel, the 1-12". I'm thinking of handloading some rounds with very light projectiles. I'd like really good accuracy. Maybe 45 or 40 grain Speer projectiles. Could I reload them on my Dillion 550B or is the powder throw not accurate enough. I don't really want to go down the powder trickler route if I don't have to.

If I may, my Dillion 550B powder throw will leak Win748 small grain powder, so I use my Redding powder throw to measure the powder. As for the 1:12 twist, it may be to fast for the light 40/45 gr. bullets. But shooting them will tell all. I have a 1:13 20" Krieger for 52gr. Sierra HPBT and it is a tack driver at 100 yds.

Maybe this article will help:
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide

You should have no problem on your Dillon with .223 ammo. Just use a ball powder, like W-W 748, H322, or something like that. Any ball powder will throw very consistently with no need to weigh charges once it's set up.

I've had great luck with the Hornady V-Max and Nosler Ballistic tip in the 40 grain weight in my .223's. Mine have all been the old 1:14" twist; I've never explored the fast twist, heavy bullet side of the .223. For me, it's always been an intermediate range varmint cartridge, for 200-300 yard work. As such, the difference in trajectory at those ranges favor the lighter bullets. Wind drift favors the heavier, but I like the flatter trajectory.

Another great .223 bullet that I'm using today is the 50 grain V-Max. It seems to be a good compromise that shoots darn near as flat as the 40's, but does better in the wind. The plastic tip seems to really help it do a lot of damage when it connects as well.

For pure plinking and paper punching, where no little pesky rodents are involved, it's hard to beat the 52 and 53 grain Sierra match bullets. I've shot thousands of those things and they work well in everything.

Thanks Abisel, thanks Jeff. I think I will explore handloading with this gun. But it is VERY fussy about what it shoots.

I've got used to using the .17HMR for casual target shooting out to 200 yards. No reloading, cheap ammo, easy on the body and the ears. But I think I'll dust off the .223 and get back into that.

I've worked with "fussy" rifles in the past. It's usually something about the chamber that allows factory ammo to lay in it inconsistently. I've found a lot of the fussiness seems to go away once you have properly prepped cases for that rifle, and that rifle alone.

The only purpose the first firing of any new lot of cases serves in such a rifle is to fireform the brass to the chamber. These are essentially throw-away. Use the brass you want to use in the long run, but just use cheap bulk bullets and any reasonable powder charge. Just blaze away and have fun - accuracy is not a goal at this point.

Once fireformed to that particular rifle, do not use them in anything else. They now fit the chamber in that rifle. From here, you want to keep them that way - so never, ever, full length resize them under any circumstances. Once you set the shoulder back by doing this, you have to start over. So don't.

Neck size, or better yet, partially resize them with a standard sizing die. Back it off the shell holder a couple of turns, and mark some cases either by smoking the necks and shoulders or by using a felt pen. Then size a case. It should come out with the marking rubbed off partway down the neck. Screw the die in farther until it rubs off to just above the bottom of the neck and top of the shoulder. Lock the die down here for all future use. You want it to stop before setting the shoulder back. A little high up the neck is better than touching the shoulder. Even if it leaves a bit of a visible "doughnut" at the base of the neck / top of the shoulder, that's fine. Actually, it's desirable in most rifles. It may actually be a little harder to close the bolt, but that's o.k. The cartridge is centered, concentric, and tight - not rattling around in the chamber.

This will ensure that the cases are always a good, concentric fit in the chamber, rather than laying in the bottom as they would if full length resized. You can get away with this in bolt guns and single shots that cam a little bit on closing. Autoloaders and lever guns won't stand for this, requiring full length sizing - often with small base dies - to chamber.

I have found that treating brass like this makes a fussy rifle less fussy. It eliminates one of the most accuracy destroying variables, cartridge to chamber fit. I only do this, of course, on "fun" guns. In my serious hunting rifles, I'll accept a bit looser fit - I just want to be damn sure it goes in, the bolt closes, and it goes "bang". Ultimate accuracy takes a back seat to more important concerns.

Oh, here - I just found a photo on my computer that illustrates what I outlined above. These are a .223, a 6.5 Swede, and a .30-'06, all prepped as described. You can see a bit of a "doughnut" at the base of each neck where the necks have not been sized. I know I said I wouldn't do this on a "serious" hunting rifle, but the 6.5 and '06 are just for deer and elk hunting. .375's and larger get full length resized.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1528776635.JPG

Wow. My advice of putting the rifle on sandbags seems so mundane.

We jumped right to reloading?

That makes sense Jeff, the neck sizing only.

When I first got the gun I bought some cheap Highland (Russian made) stuff and it was all over the place at 100m. Some shots weren't even on the target :eek: Then I switched to some cheap reloads sold by a local gunsmith. Looking through the scope it looked like I'd hit the target once and the rest had missed completely, but it turned out to be one ragged hole. Sadly the old guy isn't on the scene anymore but I'd really like to get that accuracy back.

Yep, slippery slope.

Last weekend was a bust, so I tried it again today going back to the basics with the bi-pod. I worked on a comfortable position, adjusted the scope for eye relief and used my every day glasses. I also went over the entire spoon making sure everything was tight/no loose screws. I snugged up several.

Started at 50 yards and then went to 100 yards.

I think I’d like to try a bigger scope for grins.

50 yards
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1529172231.jpg

100 yards
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1529172621.jpg

Bill, how much drop were you getting at 200 yards? Ive just ordered a Savage 17HMR for rabbits but I was think only out to about 150yards. What size groups did you get?

What fun!

Mine is sighted in for 150m (possibly 100m, I can't remember) and the drop at 200m is only about 100mm. The bullet has obviously dropped more that that but being sighted in for a closer range means it's still on it's way upwards for a while. At 50m it's fairly much a ragged hole. At 200m a group of about 100mm.

I was shooting at some rabbits 300m away and the drop was about 1.2m Didn't hit any of course.

I use Hornady v-max 17 grain. But the guys on Rimfire cental collectively think the 20 gr hollow nose is a better projectile. Boat tailed jacked hollow point Speer brand projectile.

Sorry my bad, I'm just a city slicker with 870 and a 9mm in the closet to scare off bad guys and know little to nothing about long rifles or hunting.

I am reading the 'sighting in' post very closely, I have a Ruger PC9 and LP100 waiting to be picked up.