Getting better at 100 yards...
 

Here are two pictures from this weekend. I’m still learning to dial the scope in on my AR15 spoon (with a bi-pod).

Scope is a Nikon P-223 3-9x40 Mate BDC 600.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006YVT0R8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How do you guys keep it steady? Every time I breath, it moves, so I hold my breath.

Do you use your fingertip on the trigger or place your finger a little further in? I shot the last picture with my fingertip.

Any advice from the pros here?

Hits at bottom right quadrant if my phone flips it.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1528128495.jpg

Hits around center after dialing the scope in some.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1528128562.jpg

Nice shooting....if ya wanna spend some bucks, I'll tell ya what I use....but I'm a rank amateur, novice....

Caldwell Magnum Deadshot Fieldpod ;)

....not the shorter one.

if sighting in. i would forget the bipod. i use sandbags. really try to take as much as the human element out of the equation..get all the error out now. i just show up to pull the trigger. i get it where the rifle is nestled in the bags; aiming dead nuts. i just squeeeeze.

Dang it Vash....I'm tryin' to spend the man's $ here ;)

Learn "natural point of aim". Basically, you change how you are seated to influence aim. Need to move the impact point to the right? Scoot left. Need to move it up? Scoot back. Also note that the rifle will move up and down as you breath. I aim high, then exhale to bring it on target, hold, and slowly squeeze.

Another method: one of my rifles also weighs about 60 lbs. It doesn't much matter what I do, it is going to impact in the same spot...

"Marine Corps Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship" There are both print manuals and video instruction available online. Read and heed the instruction. Take a steady disciplined approach to shooting and you will get better quickly. The finest marksmen in the world, Marine Snipers, start off with the same fundamentals as any Marine Rifleman.

If you just want good quick advice, then follow this guidance once you settle in behind the weapon:

BRASS Breathe, Relax, Aim, Sight, Squeeze

Use the meaty portion of tip end of your trigger finger. Never the very tip and never, ever the joint. Will your body into submission. Make it be still. When the round goes down-range, it should come as a surprise to you. Target #1 - it appears you are pulling the weapon as you fire. This may be (likely) causing the low and to the right shot group. Try to find the "sweet spot" in your shoulder joint to "lock" the buttstock into. Use your non-shooting hand to steady the stock once you have settled into the shoulder joint. Resist pulling the weapon back with your firing hand on the pistol grip. As you are using a bipod, you can push forward into the stock using your boot tips, thus creating a push/pull action and "quieting down" your body and the weapon.

No doubt there are others on the forum who may have better advice and more experience, but this should at least point you in the right direction. Enjoy!

opps. carry on.

(fill sandbags with really good sand?) that lead-sled thing is pretty good too!

Here is how most of the black powder shooters I do matches with aim and shoot. Since we shoot off hand and use open sights it is a tad more primitive. I get the rifle tight against the shoulder, get my left hand in the position just in front of the trigger guard, do a quick sweep to see if I am lined up to the target/steel, I lined up I raise the barrel just slightly above the target, take 3 even breaths and at the end of the last one I lower the rifle so the sights and target line up and touch the set trigger. BANG. Most of the Schuetzen shooters do the same as they are also old.


If bench shooting it is nearly the same as the barrel (in our cases) sits on a rest and the butt of the stock rests on my hand. At 73 I don't have the ability to hold steady even on a bench I time my trigger pull to when the target is in line. I would suggest either buying or borrowing a Lead Sled or other holder for the rifle as using one of those takes "you" out of the picture. Shooting on a bi-pod with the rifle against your shoulder opens lots of places where you can have accuracy issues.


Note I said a "set trigger" which breaks at 2OZ which is on all my muzzle loaders except for two which break at 2LBS which is due to match rules. So I have to ask, what is yours and how well does it break? If there is creep and poor breaking then you'll never get real tight groups. On the AR's I used in some competition a few years ago I used Rock River Arms two stage triggers so I would pull the slack and then break for the shot. The other item is how well the scope is mounted I.E. are the rings exactly lined up using one of the alignment kits available such as the ones by Wheeler? If it was just bolted on then...…...

As others have said, squeeze, never pull. It should be a smooth enough action that the gun going off is a 'surprise'.

Breathing regimine is part of accurate shooting. I always take in a breath, and exhale slowly. when I am fully exhaled, I squeeze (not pull) the trigger.....it seems to eliminate most of the movement. I sighted my AR15 in at 100 yards, and put all shots from a clip into a fist sized area laying down with a bipod. I haven't tried the new shooting table yet, been too hot out in our back field at my shooting range.

When I'm the most accurate at shooting is when I allow the explosion to surprise me.
IOW's, I'm willing to be shocked, alarmed, and jolted by the firearm. I put myself in a state of vulnerability...if that makes sense.
That's when I'm at my most relaxed and thus accurate.
Best,
.
Edit: HardDrive, yes!

You have already gotten some good advice here, so I won't try to add anything other than the best advice I ever received: Get a coach.

Even a few hours spent with someone who really knows what he is doing will make all the difference in the world. Shooting well is much more difficult than most would think. You can pick up some advice from us, on the internet, in books, etc., but nothing beats one on one with a coach.

If you have an NRA affiliated range available, inquire with them. Most instructors relish the opportunity to share what they know, and will not hesitate at the opportunity to help a guy out. They live for this stuff. You will learn more in just a few hours than you will in a lifetime of going it on your own.

i think the first best step is to dial the rifle in. make sure it is zero perfectly.

shooting is one of those things where errors are cumulative. i am not even discussing "breathing" if we dont know without a doubt where the rifle is hitting.

sandbags or some type of lead sled thing. lock the rifle it..just be the trigger guy. you dont need to control breathing if you are on bags. i saw a guy with some apparatus that used a camera trigger thing on a cord to pull his trigger, he wasnt even looking down the scope anymore. that is extreme tho.

Try various brands and grains of ammo.

Usually you can find something that shoots better than the others.

what does a standard AR platform group like anyways?
2" groups? better? worse?

If I recall my basic rifle course, BRASS = breathe, relax, aim, slack, squeeze. Its only been 50 years.
Only use the tip of your finger to squeeze the trigger.
The term "slack" means to take the slack out of a two stage trigger.
And if you shoot iron sights only the tip of the front sight blade is in focus.

Assuming shooting at least a 5 round group, a standard, chrome lined AR barrel with the right ammo - 2" at 100 will be doing very good off a bagged rest. I doubt most could manage that.

Now switch to a 22" bull match barrel, sub 2lb trigger and hand loads - you may get down to the Holy Grail of 1".

Will need to switch to a bolt action to keep going.

I was cleaning the muzzle loader from yesterday's match and happened to see my Led Sled and remembered I had not mentioned it in my original post. See if you can either buy or borrow one as it takes you out of the shooting equation.

Thanks guys!

I'll try to pick up some sand bags at PSA and find a coach for next time.

There is a ranger on site that might know someone.

Yes, use a rest the rifle can be strapped into. Put the crosshairs on the bullseye and take a shot. Then look through the scope to see where the bullet hit the paper. Don't move the rifle but move the crosshairs over the bullet hole. Now move the rifle so the crosshairs are over the bullseye and shoot again, still in the gun vice. Your scope is now perfectly sighted in two shots.

I zero in at 50 yards so the bullet crosses 0 again at 200 and will be about 1.5 in high at 100yards, depending on the load/bullet weight.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kuh_O9dhnHY" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I paid around $25 for mine on ebay...works great.

That's got to be one of the most useful little shooting doo dads I own. I'm constantly swapping out sights or scopes on my various rifles; I can never leave well enough alone. This little tool has paid for itself a hundred times over in the ammo I've saved trying to get on paper.

That said, A930Rocket is already on paper, so he is past that stage. At this point, I would caution him "don't touch that dial" in my best T.V. announcer voice. Just shoot, and get some trigger time and rounds downrange. It doesn't really matter exactly where they are hitting at this point, just so they are on paper, and we can track progress. "Progress" at this point comes in the form of smaller, more consistent groups. Right now, the groups I see are far too large to really zero the rifle. One can wind up chasing it, until groups get small enough to be able to discern their centers.

Before you do that, though, see about that coach. Practice before any qualified instruction will simply engrain bad habits that will be harder to break once you do find an instructor. Ask any of us who have taught rifle shooting - it's far easier to teach someone who has never even held a rifle than it is to teach someone who has already "taught" themselves.

That was my thought as well. The way that he's pulling the trigger is causing the low and right group. So your shooting is potentially flawed, but rather than fix the shooting, you've now adapted your scope to compensate.

I'm not being judgemental. I just know that I've had the same issue with a pistol, and if my sights were adjustable, I'd probably have done the same.

We have one of these hanging at our pistol range. Not applicable to rifle shooting, but great information for pistol shooters:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1528167332.jpg

A930ROCKET,
I have yet to see a rifle/person shoot as accurately from a bi-pod as from a rest. Prone and properly slung is better yet for the majority of rifles. A relatively cheap steady bag set up can be made from shot bags, a full bag in front and less than half for the rear. Adjust height with wood. To help mitigate the vibration use a rolls of carpet padding that is flattened. Years ago (20?) Precision shooting had some articles about bench resting AR style rifles and came to the conclusion that placing front rest vice further forward significantly reduced group size, though it magnified shooter error.

Breathing is important. Practice taking your breath by keeping your chest still and expanding your stomach to fill the bottom of your lungs, you’ll get more oxygen in your system. Breath in let it out only ½-3/4 out. If you haven’t broken the shot in 6 to no more than 8 seconds start over.

Hand sizes vary and you may not be able to get your front digit on the trigger properly even if you change the grip to a larger one. A whole lot of people grip harder with their whole hand when pulling a trigger vice pulling straight back with their trigger finger, people are use gripping with their whole hand. Practice dry firing.

Scope, mount, rings, and mounting can be a problem. I don’t know where the parallax is set on that scope. To minimize place your cheek the exact same place very time. Place a piece of tape on the stock where your cheek goes and make sure your cheek goes there every time. I learned trained to place either my lip or nose (depending on the sighting system) to the charging handle of AR type rifles for consistency. Make sure your scope is correctly adjusted for your vision.

Most ARs are good to about 1.5 MOA out to 300 meters with good quality match ammunition (Black Hills, Federal, Hornady, Nosler, etc.). I figure to add ½-3/4 MOA is shooting from a rest.

One of the easiest ways to find some good instruction is a High power match. Look up a NRA High power match and/or contact the Parris Island PAO to get Marksmanship unit for a school trained CWO.

S/F, FOG

I had the same thought when I read he had the trigger close to the joint on the first group and his pad on the second.

Many people are finding that using the lead sled with a scoped rifle has led to issues with the scope. I don't use one much as I don't mind the recoil and use an X bag but it has been on a few forums for a couple years now.

I would sight it in like you are going to shoot it unless it is a heavy rifle but your second group looks dialed in enough for now. When you get very tight groups you might need to move it.

For example, holding the rifle prone with a sling will impact slightly different than using a bipod and your left hand on the stock in your arm pit for support.

There is my $.02 which is worth even less when adjusted for inflation.

Found the video on YouTube and will watch it later.

Thank you!

I've ordered a couple of sandbags I'll try out this weekend. Maybe get a sling attached to wrap my arm around.

The range is made of a roof, a long bench side to side and seats that rotate forward/backward and are height adjustable. Probably 12 places to fire from. There is no place to shoot prone.

I'll have to take a picture next time.

Lots to learn and practice!

Thanks again guys!

Seated at a solid bench, on sandbags is better than prone (for me).

As mentioned, try a few different flavors of ammo. AR15s tend to have a fast twist rate so prefer the heavier projectiles, but experimenting is fun.

I sighted for 25/300m then aim for the bellybutton for the in between.

don't hold your breath. the pause when you inhale, and exhale fully. hold it then squeeze the trigger, and hold it till the next round cycles, and you can hear the click when you release the trigger.

post up some closer range shooting... you're lacking the fundamentals.

iron sights. Best shooting I do is when I have nose to charging handle.

Yeah, Id say at least 5 MOA is a reasonable expectation for the average shooter with most "run of the mill" ARs out there, using halfway-decent ammo. However, there are plenty of AR-platform rifles/barrels that are capable of MOA and sub-MOA accuracy. This includes chrome-lined and/or non "match grade" barrels. For instance, I have a 14.5" Colt SOCOM (heavy) barrel that is sub-MOA capable with the right ammo.
I also have an 16" stainless Noveske that is half-MOA capable (match ammo, me doing my part, yadda, yadda).

Make sure you figured out parallax on your scope.
if you move your head around on your scope, the cross hairs should not move around over your target.
This is more likely to cause shooting errors at 100 then anything else.

Then it's just a question of not jerking the trigger and good ammo/barrel.


my Sabre 20inch HBAR rand MOA all day long
but that was with a Leupold HAMR , handloads and no parallax.
Boring as hell really

with my Win 70 and 10x40 Leupold Mark4 I sucked at 100
I hated it, crappy 2 inch groups, bad strings horrible
So i zeroed at 400 and then went to shoot 1000 yards which went just great

But to be honest, scoped shooting bored me, and prone sling shooting is bad for my back
so sold all my crap and now I blow money on Porsches again :D

My shooting position as seen in the movies. :)

Sometimes my left hand is on my shoulder and some times on the handle off the barrel.

What’s the best position?

I still need to find my sweet spot where I look at the scope and see everything correctly.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1528296076.jpg

The range is 100 yards max.

I’d love me to see what it’s like to shoot 2-3 times longer.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1528298219.jpg

Dang. Those are some tall ass bipods. That is a nice range. They don’t have a stack of sandbags anywhere?

Sight in on bags , then go Hollywood.

Those pods are not the correct tool for digging in. Not in my opinion

right or wrong; this is exactly how i do it.

i have three sandbags. nothing fancy. mine are the ones you see the contractors weighing down temporary constructions signs so they dont blow over with the wind.

i arrange two up front. one on top of each other. the top bag, i fold so there is a "valley" running towards the target. i nestle the forestock in this valley. the last bag, i put close to me under the gun's stock..at the butt. i schooch up behind that gun and hug the bag under the butt. i peek thru the scope. i move the back bag back/forth so it runs up and down the butt (which is tapered right?). this changes the guns elevation at the back so i can get the cross hairs setting on bulls eye. the rifle is 100% supported by sandbag. i could let go and the rifle would stay aiming dead bullseye.

now all i have to do is slowly squeeze..the BOOM startles me. at this point the recoil has jumped the rifle off of target.

repeat. i wouldnt sight in with those 'pods. get as much sighting error out by getting your scope deadnuts. you can add (and will) add error later..the "misses" are minimized by at least having the rifle sighted perfectly.

With a low recoil rifle it doesn't really matter what you do with your left hand
223 is easy enough to manage.
holding left hand at the buttstock is more relevant on bigger calibers to help manage recoil and jump of the rifle butt.


I would not shoot a bipod that high, i would expect that it jumps shooting like that.
but if it works for you, then by all means.

Personally i would get a 3/6 harris bipod on the lowest setting possible
And put a sand bag in front of it, to put the bipod against or just not use a bipod and fully use the sandbags instead like vash suggests


I would also go prone, shooting off a table is for geriatrics and people with a really bad back or in a wheel chair..
But that's just me...I hate hard table shooting it's not beneficial for good results.
Not unless you bring a big benchrest rig and pull a string instead of a trigger.

The lower you can go the more stable and repeatable you will shoot

Feel free to PM me....I've been thru Sniper schools thru both the FBI and Army Green Beret course....Army class was far superior...In both, we were shooting tight groups at 600 Meters.....

next time; lead off with this! that way i could avoid posting my crappy instructions. :D

close thread now please.