newbe welding question-trapped moisture?
 

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bill tack the plates,dnt worry about moisture only grind where your tacking ,one tack on each side in midlle will suffice

when you are over lapping two or more panels you want to use a weld thru primer . it comes in a spray or brushable . we tend to use SEM's 39786 most of the time . if your thinking of really putting the car on a track you want to do a continues weld around the foot of the bar . as a tech for many racing clubs i would fail any cage or bar if its not done to the rules stated .most rules state to do a continues weld on all pick up points of a cage .

its a bolt in cage

continuous welds are much more likely to crack and break sheetmetal ,there has to be some give when the car flexes othewise breakage occurs eventually,there are no parts on a car solid welded, why do you think this is? it sounds like a better idea but its totally wrong, im not sure of the rules of nascar or scca but drivers ed cars dont have any such rules to my knowledge,opinions are cheap,take them for there value,, just do your homework, ask the manufactorer of your cage

a big part of my business is building and prepping race cars . whether its a bolt in cage that you want to weld in or if its a full weld together the feet are still welded to the floor the same way . with a bolt in you would want to plug weld the bolt holes then continues weld the seam around the foot . just because you may want to just do DE with a car you still should build it the way rules state after all its your ass in the car and you would want it to be as safe as it can be . you would not want to hook your 5 point belts to a cage or bar that is welded like that !

Your opinion has been noted.

could also try the racing and autox forum. Some guys prob have had some experience with this there.

My apologies to the OP for the OT but this could be important.

I'm not clear on what's going on here so correct me if I'm wrong:

There is a weld-in plate with threaded holes which the roll bar bolts to? :confused:

If this is the case, I'm thinking I'd rather spread the load out to the surrounding sheet metal and not focus the stress at four tacks holding the plate in place. JMHO.

i think the biggest thing is there is a person that put a post up that has never installed a bar let alone a cage in a car or has hever run on a track . they made some comment about welding the feet of the bar to the floor using a continues weld around the feet . and that it would crack and brake the sheet metal . i have been a tech for racing clubs and run in the ALMS along with scca , nasa , emra and many other clubs . in no way would a weld like that pass tech !! if it did get past tech you could KILL your self or even kill your instructor ! that i am one also !!! if you want to remove the bar then it has to be a bolt in with a plate under the floor with grade 8.8 bolts holding it in . if you want a weld in bar then you will have to weld it as i stated . i don't like to put people down but from stating what was stated he is putting your life at risk along with others . as for a plug weld you would weld the holes straight thru the hole to the floor . as for the welds even being any good for the bar there is little to no penetration to thows welds . and as for being unsafe with 1000's of LBS of force put on them in a crash don't you think that just 4 little tacks would just rip the sheet metal ? its because your concentrating ALL that force in just 4 little spots . PS i forgot to state this as well ! when it was stated that there are no parts that are solid welded . it is very common to solid weld the seams on race cars ! allespecially rally cars that take a heavy beating ! this is to stop seams from opening up ! just because some one has 30 years in the body biz does not mean they know any thing . i could get into why cars like porsche has there spot welds every 2 inches apart and why cars from japan have them every 3 to 4 inches apart . butthats for an other day .

on that note, how much pressure is put on a stabiizer bar ? and how is a stabilizer mtg bracket installed in a 911,surprisingly enough they are spot welded not solid welded around the mount, you can take your information from the horses mouth or his opposite end

Hmmmm.

again i think you know little to nothing about cars and the engineering of why and how they are built !most all of the replys you have made do not hold true to what and how a porsche is built and why its built the way it is . because its apperent you really don't know why the say stabilizer mounting bracket is spot welded from porsche . that is really called an anti roll bar from an engineering stand point ! it has to do with time and cost . now when your building a race car they get stiched welded in . now how would i know that well because i was one of the engineers that worked for 5 of the 7 years at porsche building race cars . O- and the other 2 years i headed up the coating dept. the bottom line is by you stating that 4 little spot welds are more than ok . you can get people KILLED ! AND THATS NO F@$KIN JOKE !!!!! so what you should do is pull your head out of that horses ass and don't claim to know more than you really do and still be so high horsesed about it that you feal the need to try to make a pointless point ! try to rap your head around this ! even thow i know your not a body person ! if there is a crease in a panel and you have to weld a pull plate to it . will it give a better pull if you put allot of little spot welds along the pull plate or just say 3 or 4 spot welds . why does it not tear the metal as ez with alot of welds when it will tear the metal with just a couple ? thow i don't know why i asked you that you would just mud it ! and thats all i have to say to you ! your just not good enough to wast my time on .

your probably pulling the crease at an angle,causing your tacks to rip of the metal that was compromised once you started welding,maybe you should of got behind the crease and pushed it out from the rear, the same place you got the info on why the (anti roll bar) was spot weld on, the fact is when they are welded on solid they wind up breaking off, ive only installed about a hundred of them,maybe when you headed up the coating dept you inhaled too much lead, i think it has affected your ability to have a conversation,,and you ought to try polyester on your repairs,mud is prehistoric like a cellette

Bluemane500,

I am just a lay person but so much of what you say just doesn't make sense. First anti roll bars are subject to far different stresses then a roll bar. secondly if those anti roll bars are subject to certain stresses they have broken and have torn the mounts free of the metal they were attached to.

There is more then one car in the auto X and racing forum that has had the tack welded seams fully stitch welded to improve chassis stiffness. Perhaps you can explain why this 935 is having all the suspension points and strut towers reinforced with stitch welds if it is not only not necessary but incorrect?

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If the suspension is reinforced with stitch welds it only stands to reason that a roll bar would be more then tack welded in place.

well the guy was wlding in plates for a bolt in harness bar, the manufacturer sent him pics with the plate spot welded in place, we werent talking about a full blown race car,an i think an anti roll bar has more stress due to the weight of the car,solid welded they break,stitch wlds are a combination of tack welds closer together it is not solid welded, so what dont make sense,, i told him to weld on all four sides of plate,, plenty sufficient as well nuts an bolts which are acceptble for most club racing ,, if someone over kills the welding they can do more harm than good, you think Porsche spot welds to save money? too much heat can compromise steel, ive seen to many issues with solid welding on a race track,,parts and cars need to have some give or things crack

i hope answered your question doc a stitch weld intermittently shuts off the welder,, it is not a solid weld,and i also told the man advice was cheap to do his homework,, i dont claim to know everything, i did installs for years for pca club members and no one ever died,also spent hundreds of hours on race tracks with 911s ten years worth i dont talk out of my rear end

further more doc before i go to bed all the pics you posted prove my point except for the first one i cant quite tell but i think that is a piece of sheet metal welded in an apron and a hole for a stabilizer bar like a weltmeister, sheetmetal is fine to seal up, but in all the other pics nothing is solid welded, people do it but it doesnt make it right, JMHO I am a factory trained professional not self proclaimed

the more you write the more your show you really don't know ! the simple fact that with the pick up points on a anti roll bar were it meats the body its only a pivet point . i could see on cars that some people build being of such pore quality that the suspension would move around and brake the pick up points on there anti roll bar . repairing 100's of them ? from what was stated i don't think this guy ever worked on any porsches ! if it was so bad then why do CO's that build roll bars solid weld all there joints ??? its so unsafe that every car on the road spot welds on suspension tabs then runs a weld along the seam were it meats the body . what should be done is some one should get ahold of all the car makers and thell them its wrong .

BM500

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't all the areas highlighted in red solid welds?
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Again I am only a lay person but it seems to me they are solid welds in those areas because the loads would be greatest at those points and need to be stronger and transfer more energy into the surrounding panel. Less so then say the center section of the tank support in photo #2 of my original post. In addition I believe the larger the area the more the stresses would be transfered. Lets use the following example. If you are treading on thin ice and you try and walk what happens? All of your weight is transfered straight down to your foot and you punch through the ice and fall in. Now if you lay down and spread your arms and legs your weight is transfered over a much larger area reducing the chance of breaking the ice and falling in. I believe the same principal applies. If you use only a few tacks all the stress is concentrated to those areas. I think the likelihood of failure is much greater. Use a solid bead and the stress is transfered across the whole bead and into the surrounding surface.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1299077764.jpg

Notice the additional of the front A arm pick up points. Granted they are tack welded in place but I believe this is because the stresses at this point are not as great as those as say the strut towers that are trying to tear themselves off the car. hence the solid welds.

So to answer your question I don't think the photoos prove your point in the least but do in fact BUST your myth.

in a nut shell thats just how it works . now the factory does not solid weld things like the a-arm pick up points because of the cost . but if you want to add more straight to the car you would put a continuous / solid weld around the mount . now would it weaken the metal around it . maybe and only maybe if you have no idea of what your doing when it comes to welding . on other posts he has claimed to know things that lead me to think other wize . 1st would be about celette frame benches . the fact that cars CO's like porsche , lambo , ferrari and m benz want there cars repaired on a frame jig is not because of it being old school and out dated . but the simple fact that the suspension pick up points are the strongest parts of the car . and a tube frame car like a lamborghini countach that we have in the frame rack now can only be pulled with its suspension out of the car . cars are built at the factory with jigs if there was a better way car CO's would build them an other way . he stated many times about polyester filler . the sad thing is todays fillers are all polyester resin based . i would think a man with 30 years in the biz would know that . the two main products in body fillers are talk (mineral) and polyester resin . what makes some fillers sand easier than others is the amount of talk in the filler . there is a fine line when it comes to fillers between making it ez to sand and having not want to srink in . the easier it will sand the more it could srink in . this is becuase the less resin there is in the product to lock the product together . the other option is using a acrylic based filler . as far as i know they don't even make it any longer ! i for one have not used it in 20 plus years . but BM500 must have been because he thinks polyester is some thing new . on an other post he stated its not a good idea to replace a qtr because it could never be as good as the original one . this is also not true at all they can be replaced and as good or even better . i have stated this in the past . because some people think they can't do the job as good them on one can . the thing is that there are many good body people out there that can . they have the right equipment and the knowladge to do so . here again the person is missleading other people in thinking his way would and could be the only right way to do it . and that is wrong !!! the hole point to forums is to try and help people and get some thing out of it for your self too. he stated he is a factory trained tach . if he is he should open up the training book he got from porsche turn it to page 351 and see just how porsche wants there QTR's replaced . then there is the comment about the lead on the qtrs . that was the biggest red flag for me to think this guy never really worked on a porsche . you will find some brass but not lead ! then on this post when a body person should know to use a weld primer he said nothing about using it and stated the 4 little welds are ok . thats when it hit its high point . its one thing to give bad addvice but its an other to put peoples life at risk . that kind of bad addvice can get people injured or killed ! my point to all this is take what he states with a grain of salt . from what i see most of you people know more then him . i will have to say i'm truly sorry to all the other people having to read about the debate between him and I .

take a couple of sugar cubes and go write your book,the purpose of the forum is to share ideas, you just type blah,blah blah,you answer questions that were never asked,you are a legend in your own mind,referring to fillers as mud,get a life dude,go back to school and learn how to spell. you don't know how to be wrong,everybody is wrong but you,please do yourself a favor and stay quiet,all this nonsense is because i corrected you on a post you answered on diminished value,you talk nonsense,,, im done with you end of story

Do a search on roll bars or cages and look at what others are doing. FWIW, 962porshce may be a bit rough in style but his opinions seem to be respected here. Just my opinion...

if you followed the post, the gentleman posted the manufactures recomendation,im sure it was okayed by the AWS but everyone is entitled to the opinion, i dont think they would put themselves at risk of lawsuit,, any how i give up here,this thing is so blown out of proportion,,im bored with it, i have better things to do,

Ok so here is what I conclude.

Porsche962

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BM500

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A horse is a horse of course of course and no one can talk to ahorse of course... Blah, Blah, Blah.

by doing this you will or could get people injured or killed . if you hook your safety belts to the roll bar and get into a crash you will brake the feet right off its mounts . as for don't worry about moisture ? any bare metal will start to rust . over time it will start to rust out the panel under the feet of the roll bar . you should use some weld primer to combat that !

i know i can't write worth a dam . i'm not an editor my step dad is ! but maybe B.S.500 should read his own write ups ? and whats with the write a sentences and post it write a sentence and post it . people with glass houses should not throw stones when it comes to the way they write replys to posts ! after all is it spelled dnt or os it spelled don't ? and is it middle or midlle ? and your right i do want to go back to school . i want to get you chemical engineering degree . maybe you should go back and finish grade school !

962 don't sweat it or is it sweet it? Eh who cares. Everyone knows what you are trying to say. Your messgae gets through loud and clear even with a few spelling or punctuation errors. He's knit picking your spelling becuase he can not back up his claims.

Ding, ding, ding. The winner is and still champion

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LOL ! thanks for your support ! i have this thing called dyslexia . dyslexia has to do with what you see . your eyes will see some thing like the letter E the right way most of the time i see the letter E with it facing the other way . it has nothing to do with intelligence ! this will piss off you know who ! but most people with it have a higher than average IQ . albert einstein had it ! i worked dam hard to get engineering degrees in chassis design and aerodynamics . and because of it . it made me want to learn and acquire all the knowledge i can and then some . with some people that have it they say i can't learn that with me it just pushed me harder to learn more . i never claim to know some thing i don't ! if i don't know some thing then i want to learn about it so i do know . if that make me a know it all or as i was called a legend in my own mind then i am truly sorry i don't want to come across that way . i do know i can come across at times very brash or as a matter a fact . its just my way of putting my point across . on a lighter note my 962 is black and silver . it was going to be all white the german racing color but after i painter it all the guys in the shop told me it looked like it was just gelcoat . so then i painted it silver then they broke my balls about it all silver so then i painted the bottom of it black and now they brake my balls saying i should put a big number 3 on the side . i think there right ??? i told them this time you guys are going to pick the color . i was thinking oslo blue # Z77 ? they shot that right down . i don't want red or yellow ! i also don't want to copy some thing like the lowenbrau car . it must be a porsche color too . so what color ???????

Mexico Blue?

My best mate suffered undiagnosed dyslexia until he was 32. We new he was really smart, but he just couldn't write (god I used to make fun of him!), and so he never got a decent job. His sister went on to become a medical professional and one night she brought a friend home who needed a bed for the night.

The friend was a dyslexia expert and over some beers with my mate who was also staying, she worked out he had a rare form of dyslexia and was able to eventually treat it. He has since gone on to finish an engineering degree and holds down a big paying job in off-shore oil. He's now the smartest guy I know.

As DaddyGlenn has said, don't worry about the spelling - we're fine!

bluemane500, it's totally cool to disagree. As my old Pop says, "Opinions are common as @rseholes - everybody's got one.". The guys here can read it all and take from it what they need.

There was a fight on these forums a few years back between two guys who clearly knew how to build a 911 "right". I'd have had either of them build me an engine in an instant! But their techniques varied and they disagreed on some fundamentals... In the end one of them left the board over the bickering never to return and I think the board is a poorer for it. I don't want to see that happen again.

okay 962, i will apologize for the go back to school, sorry to hear of your handicap, i happen to have a bad keyboard, my opinion is no different than the manufacturer of the harness bar, yours is overkill, IMO, you look at mike halls car and want to replace quarters, i lean towards repair,all 911s ive restored have lead on rockers, i cant say ive done a C2 so i will take your word for it,FYI ive spent 10 plus yrs a nhis in a 911, and have done much work for pca club members,i am a collision shop registered and licensed with the state,i always have a Pcar project going,I only do work for all the money,I have worked on a Celette at a benz dealer fo two yeas and did not like it at all, continental is my machine of choice,and again FYI most dealers around me dont even have there own body shops, everything is subbed out, most shops of choice use continentals, i know a dedicated bench is in its own way better,but its a pain in the @ss waiting for jigs and paying rentals,i have no problem, i thought the horse video was a riot but the doctor got me back haha i can take it, but i got one for you now doc , peace YouTube - Gay Doctor

Hey I remember you... you're that guy who set up the fake clinic on the corner. I was the second guy in the video. Didn't you get arrested or something for doing that? I apologize for posting a picture of your posterior. Cheers
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Oh and FYI I hit spell check and you have lots of miss spelled words.

962- Post a pic of your car lets see what she looks like so we can take a stab at colors. I posted the Lowenbrau car because I thought that was the car in your avatar.

most guys in my shop as i do use allot of sem products spray and brushable weld primers . in a case like your i would brush a thin coat on the floor were the feet of the roll bar goes and sence the can is open i would brush a coat on the under side of the feet also . i don't really think one is any better than the other . with spray you will have to mask off but you can lay down a more consistent mill thickness . were as brush on you can control the area to just were you want it but it can't be layed down in a consistent mill thickness . when it comes to zinc based primers like weld primers more is not better . on the can it will tell you just how much to spray or brush on . frame benches . i do have a chief drive on bench with a genesis measurement system . we do use it but not all that much . drive in benches have there down falls as do benches like celettes there are times when we have to pull all the suspension out of a car just to do a on hour pull . then there are other times when we have put a car on the drive in and come to find out we have to take it back off because it needs a harder pull like the ferrari 328 last week . 962 colors i was thinking of mexico blue too . 3 of the guys in the shop tell me it looks like a girls car then . i like blue colors !

962- I am a big blue fan myself. As you know from our conversation. Here are a few blue combo's I like.
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This is the color I was describing to you the other night.
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Then 918 spyder color combo has recently found a spot in my likes folder. I can see a 962 Maybe in Silver, Blue and Orange? Using the Lowenbrau paint design I can see the white substituted for Silver. The blue would remain blue and the gold stripe could be orange.

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Bill K where what part of the jersey shore are you from?

they do it would be sem # 39783 . i'm sure you know this but when you weld two deferent thicknesses of metal like the roll bar feet to the sheet metal on the floor . do 2/3 of the weld on the feet and 1/3 on the sheet metal . this will help stop any burn throws of the sheet metal . from the weld it looks like your using a 110 welder ? if so you may be at the max thickness of what the welder can handle so penetration of the weld to the feet is going to be very important . so move the weld in a C shape starting on the foot of the roll bar . you know this post was nijacked for every other topic other than what you wanted to know . i like the 918's colors i was thinking that but with a more yellow/orange color . i got a porsche panamera in the shop today . my 1st time looking at it up close and driving it . i don't like the way they look ! it is fast but it feals heavy . i don't think i would ever buy one ! the thing i really don't get is he traded in a very nice 930 for it . the 930 just fit in his garage so he gets this car home and hits the down button on the garage door clicker and guess what the door comes down right on the bumper . i don't know which was worse the guy 2 weeks ago with his cayenne turbo that had his bike on the foor rack and pulled into his garage or this guy ?

Sorry Bill I didnt mean to hijack your thread.

are you thinking of just welding nuts to the inside floor of the car ?