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Also, I see you are in California, any smog legality issues? Do you just count on Goober down at the Smog-Pro's not knowing what he is looking at?
Tom ------------------ 82 911SC Coupe |
The suspense is KILLING me!!!!!!!
Ben in SC |
The donor car was an 85 Cavalier V6 stationwagon. Reason I used the 85 system was because the input signal from the stock 3.0 distubutor was compatable in order to trigger the ignition and injection.
If you look close, you can see how I butchered an old air box with a little imagination. Smog was a breeze since I got very skillful at removing it and putting the stock CIS back in less than 30 min. Probably the most challenging part was machineing a cylider head to accept a 914 head temperatue sensor. Joe |
smog? what smog? EFI is much better at holding the right mixture (compared to CIS)...put in a lambda and a cat and you're ready for Greenpeace http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif
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I think the smog issue is more about laws against modifying emissions equipment than meeting specific emissions levels. Some states don't allow you to modify anything, no matter what the result is.
------------------ Bill Krause '79 911SC Euro MY PELICAN GALLERY |
Quote:
Everything that is not expessly permitted is forbidden. In their defence, CARB is a hell of a lot better than they used to be. Ten years ago, almost nothing was CARB approved, now lots of things are. Tom ------------------ 82 911SC Coupe |
I just spoke to my P-tech on the phone and he agreed that in theory a properly bolted 3.2 litre induction system could be put onto an SC engine (preferabley with the 3.2 litre cylinder upgrade) for short money with nice results. He said there might be some fanagling required with the flywheel. But nothing huge. Again, this is all in theory.
But clearly STLRJ has captivated our collective attention. I suspect you're going to be inundated with requests for pictures, specs, diagrams, FAQ's, graphs, etc ad infinitum. Heck, I'm barely able to contain my own curiousity. ------------------ Janus Cole 1980 911SC & 1987 944 |
OK In yet another display of my unending ignorance....Why would the fly wheel be involved in such a conversion?
Jeff C |
The DME system used magnetic triggers on the flywheel. 3 if I remember right....
I do hope that we can get a little more detail on the GM FI, like part numbers, maybe a few pics of the installation etc. Heck I am already calling the local junk yards looking for an 85 Wagon http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif Ben in SC |
OK In yet another display of my unending ignorance....Why would the fly wheel be involved in such a conversion?
Well, if you're ignorant then so am I. My P-tech explained it and it sounded something like what Ben said. Aside from that, I just nodded and said, "Oh, okay. Something about a sensor." It didn't seem like a show stopper. And since we're already all searching for 85 Fords in the bone yards (myself included), let's add Audi's and VW's to the list. I did some research on Bosch K-Jetronic (aka CIS) systems and found out that Bosch upgraded the system to be essentially an EFI system in the late 80's. Seems they added everything we CIS guys could want - mass air flow sensor, pulsed injection, etc. And they did it all within the same throttle body/fuel distribution unit. The system is called KE-Jetronic and it looks to be about as "bolt-on" as "bolt-on" gets. Pull the fuel distribution unit off, replace it with an almost identical unit (with electronics inside), add some sensors and you're good to go. And presumably, if you get one from a wrecked VW, then the price would not include the "Porsche Tax" and might be reasonable. I'll keep digging and present the results once I have more. Stay tuned. ------------------ Janus Cole 1980 911SC & 1987 944 |
Sorry for the long wait for the reply.
Beepbeep; I'm still shopping around for an adjustable fuel pressure regulator at a decent price. I'm also waiting for my TB's to come in first. BenWillis; Some basic mapping is done when you receive the SDS system. I also bought most of the sensors from SDS, as I didn't want any electrical gremlins. Go to their website, they have a ton of info. They've done 911 before, look at their project cars. I'll be fine tuning with an Air/Fuel meter, done by none other than me, I got the plans from the Pelican tech area. (I modified the plans slightly, to better suit my needs.) The main reason I chose individual throttle bodies is because I wanted instant engine response. But I know I could probably have saved 1000$ easy if I had taken a used 3.2L intake system. I don't intend to put a blower on the engine either, so TB's it is. PS: Wckrause, my sc already had a computer for the 02 sensor. Also, my car is not a collector car, it's got plenty of mileage and dings, it's my weekend semi-street-legal project/go-kart http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif |
RE: KE-Jetronic
You got me curious, so I dug out my Bosch FI book and read up on KE-Jetronic. From the description, it sounds pretty similar to the standard CIS with Lamda, except the WUR is removed, and an electronic unit to control fuel pressure and a coolant temp sensor are added. Unfortunately the biggest chokepoint of the old CIS is still there, the sensor plate. Too bad, as it can be found on Audi 4000S & 5000S, Mercedes 190E, and VW Cabriolet, Golf, Jetta, Quantum and Scirocco. Should be easy to find parts. Tom ------------------ 82 911SC Coupe [This message has been edited by emcon5 (edited 11-07-2001).] |
it sounds pretty similar to the standard CIS with Lamda
Yes, I believe you are correct. On further investigation, I learned that Bosch has developed a number of incarnations of the "Jetronic" system (K-Jetronic, KE-Jetronic, KE3-Jetronic, D-Jetronic, etc, etc). So I am certain that I have them confused. I'll keep researching to determine which, if any, could provide a genuine upgrade to our K-Jetronic systems. I still have a lot of interest in this option. I just need to sort out the various options. And did I understand correctly that the later Porsche turbos and maybe the 993(??) used variations on the Jetronic theme? If so, then these might provide clues or upgrades as well. Lots of research to be done here and I'm, working on it. ------------------ Janus Cole 1980 911SC & 1987 944 |
Ben,
Forget the wagon. Just about any 85 with a 2.8 V6 will do. Pick up an 85 Chevy manual at the Goodwrench place and then head off to your nearest boneyard. That was basically my approach. And be prepared to do a lot of reading... Joe |
Joe and jadams are right on. All sorts of GM models run the 2.8L V6. If 85 was a special year, so be it. There's Cavaliers, S-10 trucks/Blazers, Sunbirds, Fieros (did it get the GT-V6 that early? because you'll need a GT for the 6), Celebritys, Buick Skyhawks, Cadillac Cimmaron (oooooh a Caddy had one too!), Olds Cutlass Calais and whatever else I forgot.
Point is, most (probably all) of the above cars are some serious piles of poo at this point in time and should be readily available at your local donor yard!!!! Good luck. Joe (strlj) knows much better since he did the conversion, but I imagine more than just 1985 stuff will apply. GM hangs onto tech. stuff for a little while (e.g. TPI for the F-body cars and Vette was mostly unchanged from 86-90 [85 & 86 had different PROMS]and changed a little 91,92 [went to speed density from MAF I believe] before introducing the LT-1 motors). Great topic. Interchangeability from different manufacturers is always fun to read about. ------------------ Kevin 87 Carrera coupe [This message has been edited by KTL (edited 11-08-2001).] |
But hey, if you are using GM Cavalier EFI, how do you trigger injectors in right moment?
Ignition timing is different for boxer-6 compared to V6...do you spread sensors around flywheel in different way or what? |
Kevin,
If you go beyond 85, you'll be dealing with a crank position sensor as part of the crankshaft...too complicated. If you stick with the 85 TPI you can use the signal from your stock distributer to the EFI computer to trigger the injectors. I think the solution to the cylinder head temp sensor installation, if I did it again, would be to find one that fits under the spark plug like they do in general aviation. That would eliminate machining a head for a 914 sensor and save $$$. Joe [This message has been edited by stlrj (edited 11-08-2001).] |
Joe, In an email I got from you you mentioned converting the CDI? What are the other options, could a MSD be used in place of the stock CDI?
Ben in SC |
jadams,
Is Motronic batch fire also? That is, non-sequentially injected. Joe, I figured you mentioned only 85 for a reason. I'm no parts manipulator, just a little (very little) informed about GM stuff. Thanks for the correction. I imagine the CPS is why the TPI eproms changed from 85-86? All of you guys rock! Building a CIS to EFI upgrade out of Cavalier electronics.... That's slicker than whalecrap on an iceberg. ------------------ Kevin 87 Carrera coupe |
3.2 Motronics are batch fired. Sequential did not start until the 993's if I'm not mistaken.
I wouldn't know if MSD is compatible but then why make it more complicated than it is? Besides, HEI will blow the electrodes off CDI any day and no manufacturer I know of uses CDI today for good reasons. Joe Speaking of slick, you should have seen the expression on the Chevy technician when he plugged his scan tool into my diagnostic test connector and read the data stream...it was hilarious! [This message has been edited by stlrj (edited 11-08-2001).] [This message has been edited by stlrj (edited 11-08-2001).] |
"""Joe " Are you prepared to convert your CD ignition to a
transistorized HEI system? If you can do that you might just might have a chance moving on to the next step in the conversion process. """" Not sure what you are talking about here, what does it intel converting the CDI box to HEI. I had hoped to keep the old CIS in a box for "just in case" times. I guess that your saying the stock CDI wont work with the EFI???? Please elaborate. Ben in SC |
That's right. CDI and EFI do not mix or you might have seen it on DME. Believe it or not, DME uses HEI, they just don't call it that...only GM can.
Converting to HEI is small potatoes considering what you will be embarking on and that's just getting into the starting gate. Joe [This message has been edited by stlrj (edited 11-08-2001).] |
Two Ford 1985 V-6 engines for $100 on eBay. Economists all around the world will scratch their heads wondering why old Fords are suddenly selling like hotcakes!
------------------ Janus Cole 1980 911SC & 1987 944 |
Can I get a bump? Anyone found any more info?????
Ben in SC |
Well, I'm with you, the curiosity is driving me nuts. I think we may be stuck unless we can somehow bribe stlrj Joe into providing some detailed specs and maybe even author a tech article on the 85 Ford/Porsche 911 EFI conversion. I am willing to offer my *sister* at this point (though I haven't yet cleared it with her or her husband). On a separate (and admittedly less interesting front), I ordered the Bosch Fuel Injection book to research options. The KE-Jetronic system is nice and seems to an easy install. But it has been correctly pointed out on this thread that it still retains the "flapper" air meter. But the later LH-Jetronic system had a MAF. Can they be convinced to play nice together? I'll let you know after I read the book and can speak from intelligence instead of my current location (i.e. my arse).
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Janus I came across a book about adapting EFI to cars that were not previously equiped. It apperantly has apart listing for you to use on your trip to the local pick-a-part.........
Here is a link to one of them listed on ebay.... Ben in SC "Still on the EFI conversion trail" |
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Guys,
A better book for you would be "Fuel Injection: Installation, Performance Tuning, Modifications" by Jeff Hartman. The theory alone is worth the price. Stlrj, I've read all the posts and there was no mension of how well the adapted EFI system performed in the 911 application. Did the injectors deliver the fuel required for the new higher performance engine? I can't remember off hand what the HP figures were for the '85 GM engines, but I'm sure it's not as much as the three liter SC. |
I also was concerned about the differnces in performance and if the EFI would be flexible enough to compensate but was surprised to find that it not only adapted to its new environment, it improved throttle response, low end torque, top end power and returned better than 30mpg on the road.
When I sold that engine five years ago, I saved the EFI and sold it with the CIS with the idea that I would someday put it on my 3.2 which did not match the performance of the 3.0 EFI. But as it turns out, I eventually was able to tune my DME to match it so I no longer had a need for it and got rid of most of the parts. In retrospect, I should have saved all the parts or at least taken some pictures. No way I could have imagined that anyone would be interested in such an unusual setup. Joe |
Sorry all, but I can't let this excellent post languish on page 3.
Joe, Can you give some details on the setup? Was it simply a matter of bolting it on, or was there more to it as far as mixture mapping? How long did it take you to get it tuned to where you were satisfied with the setup? Tom |
Tom,
There was nothing bolt on about it at all. Just about everything had to be fabricated, modified and finagled to make it work with a whole lot of trial and error until it performed to my satifaction. Mounting EFI injectors on CIS manifolds and then targeting them to the optimum angle took me weeks to figure out and even then I continued to chase after vacuum leaks that robbed performance. Still other challenges were in the installation of a throttle position sensor, an idle air control valve, MAF sensor, where to get a signal for the vehicle speed sensor VSS, how to trick the ECM to see an EGR signal without it being connected, how to adjust the fuel pressure to make the ECM see a block learn number 128, understanding integrators and 02 sensor crosscounts... I even ended up taking a class in Indian Valley College called automotive computer contols taught by Bob White from the Buick Division of GM. Sorry to bore you with all the nerd stuff, but I can guarantee you will become a nerd in order to have the slightest chance of getting it to work. I forgot to mention that this was my second CIS to EFI conversion, so I have a slight advantage over anyone who has never done one before. My first was converting my 74 2.7 CIS to EFI from an 80 280ZX using the same modified airbox and manifolds. But, as far as I'm concerned, the GM system is far superior in every respect. Joe |
While you're at Pik-a-Parts, look around for one of those ML320's (yeah right). This may be the answer though; 6 cylinders, V-arrangement and a neat scroll-type magnesium intake manifold not unlike Vario-Ram. Computer fires the dual plugs in an A-B, B-A, A-B, etc. staggered-timing sequence for a better burn and to increase plug life. I thought that was pretty trick.
I thought I'd contribute to the database. Regards, Sherwood Lee http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars |
GM was the first to go to this distibutorless ignition system or coilpack as you describe in 1986, but I recommend staying away from this because of that added complexity of an additional crank position sensor and cam sensor in order to trigger the coilpacks in the proper sequence.
Joe |
Jim,
A quick question. I have been doing ALOT of research over the past few days on this subject. My question is did the FI system you adapted use a MAF sensor or was it a speed density system? I would think that for our purposes a Speed Density (MAP) system would work the best. One reason being that you would not need to worry with the intake ducting, filter>MAF>throttle body. I have almost got my parts list down for my project some of which include a EPROM burner :) Looks like we may have found a use for all those blown airboxes people throw away? Anyone out there have a blown Airbox I can have? Once I have a definitive listing with part numbers I will post them for anyone interested. One problem I still face since I am a little unfamiliar with it is the ignition. Joe sais that the CDI Dizzy signal is compatible but doesn't give us a whole lot of detail about any of the components that he used on his conversion. From what I have read the later EFI systems used at least a four wire HEI dizzy to trigger the ECU to fire the ignition. I am wondering how compatible if at all the (if I'm not mistaken) 2 wire distributor will be in this application. I am not against fabbing a crank pulley wheel to house the trigger magnets for a HALL switch doing away completely with the dizzy. I am exited about using the aldl connector to connect my laptop inside the car for real time engine info. I have found some really good info on this and reading/writing maps to the EPROM. I wonder if we can get a functioning system if there would be may other people interested in a relatively cheap alternative to the CIS? Done wit the ramblings, Ben in SC |
Ben, just curious, what is the total amount you think you will have in the complete system?
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Mark,
I havent gotten that far yet. It would all depend on the availability of the parts from your local junk yard. When I am a little further along I will post all info that I have. Ben in SC |
Ben,
You'll need a four terminal ignition module; two terminals for the dizzy signal and the other two for the coil 12V and the swithched ground. The crank position sonsor, if you go that route, will consist of a variable reluctance transducer and not a Hall switch. But now you will be dealing with the added complexity of a knock sensor. I hope you have manual at this point, you'll need it! Joe |
no brainer ?
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Seems to fit right into what we are doing, using GM components wherever possible because they are widely availabe and cost effective.
Joe |
??? ... I just received the Bosch fuel injection book from Amazon...thumbing through the pages I saw a section on performance mods and saw a brief passage saying that a company called Techtonics on the West Coast was building a turbo VW with *DUAL* CIS fuel injection systems. Is this as nutty as it sounds? I found the Techtonics website, but they didn't have an email address listed. Granted it isn't an EFI conversion but...in my ignorance I can see three throttle bodies side by side - each connected to a CIS air flow meter/fuel distributer. Each one feeds two cylinders...all mounted on a slightly modified CIS air box...most of the vacuum hoses would simply be split into three to feed the three air throttle bodies...one WUR, one Aux air regulater, one frequency valve, one cold start injector (with the late style dispersal hose to feed each cylinder), etc. The result could be better throttle response, free-flowing intake, more precise air/fuel mixing. Is this way off the mark? Does anyone know more about Techtonics or their turbo VW?<br>
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