Yet one more squeaky front end posting...
 

Minor pushing down on the front bumper produces annoying squeaks, so I'm guessing the Wishbone/Torsion tube bushings are pretty much shot. It's an '85 which I've owned for 20+ years without touching anything suspension-wise, so they're no doubt originals.

I searched here for squeaky front ends and read through a dozen or more threads on the topic. Some had photos of the culprit bushings, and one of the threads even complained that all the threads as well as the Dempsey "How-to" articles showed replacing the bushings once disassembled, but there was nothing that discussed step X step procedures of how to drop the suspension parts from the car in the first place. The Haynes book is useless, and I don't have a Bentley.

Would someone tell me if the Bentley has a decent how-to procedure for this, or is doing it pretty intuitive once you slither under and start unbolting things. I'll buy a Bentley manual if it's got a Step !, Step 2 kinda guide or is really needed, but would rather save the bucks if it doesn't have much detail. If anyone knows of a thread here dealing with an easy way to remove and replace the suspension parts, please give me the link(s).

Don

Get a Bentley manual it is more concise
And you will use it for more than suspension. Don’t cheap out on rubber parts! I did and now 5 years later I have to do it again I used uro rubber bushings and I am going to get Elephant. You will need to replace the lower ball joints, and swing arm bushings.

I recall a thread where the sequence of dissasembly was outlined. Maybe someone can find that.

But, before you start, you may want to pinpoint the exact source of the squeek. A hose with one end held to your ear while someone else pushes the car up and down will work.

If you decide to remove your A arms here is the basic sequence.

Jack up and remove wheels and support on jack stands.

loosen and remove the torsion adjusting screw then pull off the torsion bar end cap.

Remove your sway bar.

Disconnect the ball joint from the bottom of the strut.

Pull out the torsion bars.

Remove the front A arm mounts.

If you have an 85, and the front end has never been updated with new bushings, it is time. Past time. I replaced all the rubber parts on my suspension several years ago with Elephant Racing parts. And all the "while you are in there" parts like turbo tie rods, and new shocks. It was an amazing transformation. And do not cheap out and use the other brands of rubber parts. Get the good stuff, do it right, and ER will not let you down, and it comes with all the tools you will need for the bushing replacement.

FWIW- I did purchase new Dansk Arms from our host in the Spring- solved the issue for me. I had replaced the bushings on the original arms in 2015 (squeak came back!) and also the sway bar bushings in 2016 (squeak came back!) Could not be more pleased. Also- great pricing from our host.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1544833545.jpg


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FvXBR50rH9E" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Did you also replace the torsion bars when you installed the new control arms?

This was my winter project 2 winters ago on my '84 Targa. The entire front suspension comes out as a unit. I found it was a good time to clean the wheel wells and area from the center of the floorpan forward. Cleaned, Power coated and painted everything. New ball joints and all the soft bushings replaced with updated , more durable and stiffer (but not bronze) bushings and mounts.

It all comes out easily and goes back the same way. This winter I'm pulling the rear suspension for the same treatment, the parts are sitting on the workbench. The time for a fresh 4 wheel alignment and ride height adjustment by spring. The car is on stands now so I can tackle things right after the Christmas/New Year holidays.

Its not a difficult job, the old rubber tends to need a good "cooking" with a propane or mapp torch to loosen up the old, mushy rubber parts but the new parts go in the clean parts easily. Setting the ride height can be the challenge but measure the "free angle" of the arms before removal so you have a benchmark going back together. Time for new struts if they aren't replaced, mine were the original FACTORY wet struts form 1984! Replace EVERYTHING you can while its apart and you are good to go for a long time.

I'll see what I have for pictures and post later.

So you guys aren't replacing the torsion bars?

You don’t need to unless you find the old ones were rubbing and are rusty. But it is a perfect time to upgrade them.

I’ve been collecting parts including some used front and rear torsion bars and sways to go slightly stiffer than stock, Turbo tie rods, new ball joints, etc. Anything that requires a re-alignment. Working with Steve Weiner, will also be buying some custom-valved Bilsteins from him. Doing everything at once.

Note that you probably don’t want to change the front torsion bars to a different size without doing the rear at the same time.

Mark

I did not replace the torsion bars, cleaned than, polished as needed, repainted and reinstalled in the same position as they came out, no issues.

Wow, thanks to everyone for their replies, there's a lot of good info in them.

For those who've done the replacement of the bushings or entire wishbone/control arm assemblies, may I ask if you went into it with only your basic instincts of looking at the way things fit together, figuring out what needs to come out first/go back in last, and have it come out right? Or, did you have the manual? Did you have to buy any one-of-a-kind tools, like say a special socket to loosen the retaining nut that holds the shock/strut ball joint to the wishbone? I see they sell something for it, but is it necessary?

As a farsighted old fat dude with a bad back, working under the car on jackstands and slithering into positions to see things is problematic. Can the requisite areas to work in be accessed easily with minimal contortions while on the floor? What I'm getting at is that while I've worked on the car before, I'm not a hobbyist, and don't love it. I'm just a 69 year old retired guy on a budget and don't really want to pay someone to do sh, er, stuff I can do myself. Right now all I care about is getting the squeaks to stop. The car is otherwise fine, and might be up for sale next summer before something more intimidating goes haywire with it. That's why I'm not too enthused over popping out a $C-note for the Bentley repair manual if I don't really need it for this. Are we talking a couple of hours work per side to R&R the control arms, ball joint, etc?

I had the goose sound in my front end too. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/956943-canada-goose-got-stuck-my-front-fender.html

Torsion bar was rubbing inside the tube. So last winter I dropped the entire suspension front and rear and completely rebuilt it. Good opportunity to rebuild the steering rack too. It's not difficult.

This thread was enormously helpful. Plus a few phone calls to Chuck and Shannon @ Elephant.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/726309-78-sc-elephant-racing-suspension-rebuild.html

It was a (mostly) fun and rewarding process. I drove my car 5200 miles to Rennsport this year on suspension and an engine built by me. Pretty satisfying feeling. Good luck.

Personally, I would highly recommend you spring for the Bentley if you do this. I was 68 when I completely rebuilt the front end on my '74 4 years ago (fairly good physical condition and no real back issues) and I did it over a 3-4 week period in the winter.. no hurry just took my time and lots of pictures. It isn't rocket science at all but you definitely have to pay attention and it does require quite a bit of crawling around under the car.
The front suspension was getting well worn and as I do not plan on selling the 911 I completely rebuild the entire front end:
New ER control arm bushings, new sway bar bushings, new ball joints, new Koni's, wheel bearings, S Calipers rebuilt by PMB, new hard and soft brake lines, new rotors (couldn't turn the old ones), new tank to tunnel fuel lines, turbo tie rods, powder coated the control arms, bump steer kit, etc, etc..

As far as special tools, the usual torque wrenches, impact wrench and BFH about cover it. As far as ball joints, as I didn't want the buy the special socket and my torque wrenches don't go that high, I took the control arms, new ball joints, new wheel bearings and hubs to a nearby Porsche shop and for $50 he installed the ball joints and wheel bearings .. well worth it.

If you are planning on selling ? Tough decision.

This is what a disassembled front suspension looks like:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1544912304.jpg

and this is the part you will be working with:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1544912373.jpg

and like I said, lots of crawling around.... good luck.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1544912689.jpg

I’d add a roll pin punch to the tools if you plan on replacing the shock inserts. Makes removing/installing the pins a breeze. I did the same as 74-911 in regard to tourquing the ball joint nut. Had the shop that did the post op allignment and corner balancing take care of that.

As a side note, I got my Bently in ebay for $25. Deals are out there.

74 front end refresh observations
 

Ready to assemble my dad's 74 front end. This slippery slope started 6 years ago with a sticking front caliper and a bit of an annoying squeak, (worn a arm bushings allowing the torsion bar to "rub" on the cross member). Life got in the way, fixing and selling houses, a few surgeries, moving, replacing concrete for The Lift....
Parts cleaned, blasted, painted or powder coated, new ER rubber, now, all I have to do, is to deal with drivers footwell floor rust, then put everything back together. Rebushing the optional Carrera bars and adding adjustable rear drop links for the obligatory cornerweighting after height and alignment set.

Torsion bars fail when they have significant rust, or more likely, a worn spot, (stress riser), I have heard a few say that bars weaken with age and should be replaced, but will leave that to those with serious shop experience. If your bars are not worn and you aren't wanting to firm things up - re use the old bars.
So, I initially bought a good used bar to replace the worn bar, then, after more reading here, decided to do a mild upgrade on the suspension and moved from basic stock replacement stuff to 21 & 28 t bars with elephant rubber, bilstein HDs, PMB restored M calipers, new discs, bearings, SS lines, sport hardness strut top bushings.
This, of course led to a new master cylinder, rapidly, including a pedal cluster rebuild.
Moving on down the slick slope, I opted to install a Quaiffe "Quick rack and pinion", while doing the steering rack refresh, being somewhat anal, I opted to upgrade to sealed pinion bearings.

Because of the time and expense of corner-weighting and alignment, I think it is most effective to get all of the suspension work done once, not piecemeal.
IMHO, it is "Wise", (one of Wayne's favorite admonitions), to plan your rebuild with a trusted Pro like Chuck, at ER, I felt like he was not only very knowledgeable, but genuinely interested in helping me; not just selling parts.

There seem to be a lot of fat old "phuggers" with 74s, (I'm 70 and sporting 175 pounds of enthusiasm), ? ��
Semi retired, blessed with a recently installed Rotary, asymmetric, 9K lift, I am looking forward to the assembly process.
Chris

I did the Elephant Racing Poly bronze bushing at least 10 years & 75,000 miles ago to cure the squeaks on my '82. I hit the zerks once a year, the end. R & R the steering rack, tie rod ends, rubber bellows, ball joints, shocks. I used the torsion bars over again, just keep them in the same position as removed. I'm told after 30 years they don't like being twisted the opposite direction.

Thank you one and all for your input. Going to put it up on stands later today, slither beneath, and do a personal assessment of the PITA quotient.

It's not really all that that bad a job, I did my '85 in a couple of weeks and a good portion of that was waiting for the re-plating of the parts. Once the A-arms and steering rack are out of the car, ball joints and the springs around the tie-rod rubber boots gets a LOT easier. Getting the steering rack back in without a second pair of hands is probably the most challenging part, otherwise it doesn't require a yoga expert to get everything out and back in again. There are many really good threads here to help with the process.
Bill

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1545080453.jpg

Aw sheesh, Bill, you went all out there, didn't you? That's the full spectrum of "while you're in there" stuff that many of the posts here rightly recommended. Would you be so kind as to provide a tally of what the stuff you've replaced ended up costing you? Not a detailed accounting, mind you, just a ball park give or take total for the new parts.
Don

Hi 911obgyn, we now offer an "HD" performance version of Front Control Arm Bushing Kit 901 341 421 02K, which is about 30% more firm than our OEM-firmness bushings. We'd be happy to send you a set at no charge as a warranty replacement, just email "sales at uro parts dot com" (remove spaces) with your purchase info and we'll get them on the way. If anyone else purchased our standard durometer set and is unhappy with the firmness or longevity of the bushings, please contact us for an upgrade to the HD version 901 341 421 02KHD.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1545867210.jpg

We also offer a HD version of the Rear Spring Plate Bushings which is 80-85 Shore A durometer rubber (vs the 55-60 Shore A rubber used for OEM-durometer bushings 911 333 009 00B).

Hey Gordon, thanks for your reply on this and the tips on the sequence, it's exactly what I was looking for to augment the Dempsey how-to article that shows the work on an older car. I jacked up the car and shot some Tri-Flow as best I could in and around the front bushings, lowered it, rocked the car up and down by the front bumper a number of times, and the squeak was gone. That helped me to localize the culprit, which was what I suspected from the start... the old rubber bushings. The Tri-Flow isn't a fix, and would no doubt not be especially good for the rubber in the long run, so I know that dropping the control arms to replace them at the very least is in my future.

I have a few followup questions to ask, if I may. Did you do an extensive overhaul/upgrade when you did this, or merely replace the bushings like for like? If you replaced the old ones with new rubber, did you "grease" them, and if so with what? If my ball joints display no looseness to them and seem tight enough to where they don't need to be replaced for other than "While you're in there" reasons, the struts and tie rods are left alone and not messed with, does merely R&Ring the control arms to replace the bushings necessarily mandate an alignment after reassembly? The rubber swaybar bushings also seem pretty crusty and should also be replaced, so the same questions applies to that as well.

In case Gordon doesn't see this, anyone else is invited to chime in with the answers. But please, bear in mind that I'm not particularly interested in upgrades for performance purposes (can't afford it anyway, thank you very much Wall Street!!!), and have no desire for this thread to become an advertising opportunity for parts manufacturers/suppliers. I just want the squeaky noises in my head to go away, and the easiest way to achieve it.

Don

Many times what will happen is when the rear A arm bushings get worn the actual torsion bar will rub. This is usually not to the point where the torsion bar needs to be replaced, but worth closely inspecting it for a grove that has been worn into it or any rust.

These front suspensions are a slippery slope. It really depends on a number of calls. If you are planning on keeping the car and know that every thing on the suspension is original you may want to do everything. Meaning new rubber bushings, as you are planning, the sway bushings as well, then everything else is up for debate.

Tierod ends and ball joints are tough to evaluate. They can feel OK but when the force of the car's weight on them may actually have some play. Check shock inserts for both play in the rod and any softness when you pull the rod up and down. Those can be something to seriously consider.

Other "while in theres" would be wheel bearings, brake hoses, and maybe even brakes. It is hard to know when to stop.

Rubber bushings don't use any grease and yes, you will need the alignment checked.

In my case, I basically rebuilt my entire front suspension. But I wanted to increase my torsion bar size and replace my entire strut assembly, probably not what you are planning.

Rubber control arm bushings are designed to flex as opposed to turn. You wouldn't grease them, but doing so now (since they're shot enough to start sliding) might solve your main issue for a spell.

https://www.elephantracing.com/wp-co...tation_001.gif

If you take the front suspension apart you'll want to have the car aligned and corner-balanced once it's back together. This is true if you replace nothing, anything, or everything. It's 4-5 hours labor at a shop that specifically knows how to set up air-cooled 911s. This is where the while-you're-in-there starts...

Might also take a look at your shock tower mounts, if all this rubber is 40 years old, it's likely not behaving as well as it could. Steering rack internals, too...

Thanks to you both.

+1
 

Mine started with a sticky caliper and a front end sqweek (rubbing rubbing torsion bar), so, down the slope...calipers, discs,bearings, ElephNt rubber bushings,strut sport hardness, Bilsteins, what the he11, quick rack, MC, pedal cluster, air to ft discs, bigger bars, S S brake hoses, ball joints, turbo tie rods.

Tremelune also makes a good point, if you are "In There", do everything that would require a new corner balance/alignment - you don't want to pay for it 2 or 3 times.

Good luck,
Chris

Ha,haha, haaaa, Chris! I guess going through the catalog here is like going to Costco when you're hungry... can't get out cheaply. Merry Christmas

Great GIF drawing of the rubber flexing, it makes perfect sense and illustrates the dynamics well. I do have a question about it... at what point in the arc of the control arm travel does the bushing have a neutral load? I mean, when is it at rest and not stretched. It seems that it would be when the car is jacked up and on stands when the strut/shock is extended, because that's how the arms with bushings attached are initially installed, ergo the bushing's "neutral" position. After installing and tightening in that position, the illustration suggests that things would torque and the bushing would rotationally stretch and remain that way when the car is lowered to wheels on the ground ride height, then stretch even more when bumps are encountered. Is it much the same as the torsion bars, where the bar has a neutral tension position so it can be removed, then pre-load when reassembled and lowered? Probably rudimentary questions, but I've only dealt with bushings in rear leaf springs before, so forgive me.

One would think that the torsion bars should be doing the work, not the bushing.

Yeah, I get ya.

I haven't replaced my bushings, but I believe they are supposed to be installed at a certain angle such that they're reasonably neutral when the car is sitting stationary. There are plenty of threads here if you can find the, and Elephant has some instructions and videos:

https://www.elephantracing.com/porsche/911/bushings-bearings-for-911/rubber-bushings/

The torsions bars to the lion's share of work, but people have reported that their rides get a bit softer when switching from rubber to low-friction bearings, so maybe there's something to it.

Well I couldn't procrastinate and talk this project to death any longer, so I jacked 'er up, tweaked the jack stand positions to where I felt comfortable slithering beneath 'er, and started the front-suspension dismantle. First step was to loosen the sway bar brackets (yup, those bushings are toast too) and removed the belly pan shield. Step two was to release the tension on the torsion bars and remove the adjuster and its positioning bolt. As the struts (Boge, dammit) are hanging from the top mounting, it made sense to me to release the ball joint pin to the struts, so off came the nuts and washers for step three, and I shot an s-pot of Tri Flow into gaps around the wedge pin and let it set for an hour whilst I cleaned up some stuff I pulled off earlier. I threaded the nut back on as some posts suggested, got a long 1/2" extension as a drift and my persuader (4lb lineman's hammer) and started to wail on the nut. I was hoping for maybe a millimeter's worth of movement, but the thing pretty much laughed at me. I recon'd the situation and remembered that I had a Chinese knockoff mini air hammer with a punch chisel in the toolbox, and as it was late by then and I didn't want to PO the neighbors with the noise, I shot some more Tri Flow in there and called it a night.

This morning the air hammer rat-tat-tatted the wedge pins out in about 2.36 seconds. Step four had me placing the floor jack under the front hub (ya know, Harbor Freight's 6" cheapo fake lambswool polishing bonnet slips nicely over the round thingy on the jack and did a good job protecting my new brake rotors from getting scratched) and raising the strut up about three or so inches. With each pushdown on the handle it raised incrementally and more and more of the ball joint's upper mounting pin became visible. I was able to free the control arm by jiggying it with my free hand as I jacked. This, after spending the night reading forum posts by guys who had to use the torch or mash on the ball joint with pickle forks, it pleased me very much. With the control arms free, Step five had me removing the long rear mounting bolt and the three front bolts to drop the arms one side at a time. The sway bar was still shoved into its control arm bushing attachment, and I had left the torsion bar in. That allowed me to reposition myself to support the arm (made heavier by the sway bar) and lowwr it to the floor. Step five dot three was to slide the control arm a bit sideways and nudge the sway bar out of the bushings, which allowed me to reposition it and slide it out of the arm still up there, and Step five dot six was to drop the remaining arm. I won't say it was a piece of cake, but it sure went a lot more easily that it could have. Total actual "working time"... less than four hours.

There's a lot to do, so if your still with me, I have a couple of questions I need advice on. First off, I'd like to tidy up the aluminum crossbar, so I'm thinking of dropping i to give it a once-over. I haven't seen it addressed in any of the related threads, but it looks like the fuel pump has a bracket that bolts to the back of the crossarm. If I undo that bolt, will the fuel pump stay put, maybe supported by the wiring and fuel lines, or is it dangerous to let it hang?

Secondly, there seems to be some choices regarding parts, namely the ball joints and the control arm bushings. There's a $45 buck each ball joint, a $74 buck each one, the genuine Porsche ones megabucks, and a kit with two from Rennsport that seems to have all bottom nuts, star washers and cotter pins for $150. That's the same price as the Leffendorfer (or whatever the hell the name is, but with those you still gotta buy the castellated nuts for nearly $20 bucks each (I figure I'm going to maim the old ones when I remove them.)

As regards to the bushings, I want to cry when I see what Elephant wants for their kit at $229. Is the rubber REALLY any better than the Genuine Porsche bushings at $88 for four, or is it that the "proprietary installation tools" are worth the difference in price?

I'll pose the shock inserts question at a later time, but I guess I've got to drop (not literally) the struts to see if the Boge (is that Boge-ey and Bilst-EYE-n?) has internal or external threads first (I guess it makes a difference).

Thanks for listening.

Bump... Forget the diary, but I'd REALLY like some insights into my questions. Thanks...

For the amount of effort required to replace these parts (taking into account adjusting ride height, alignment, corner balancing), I wouldn't bother with anything but the best possible parts you could put on the car.

It doesn't seem like you could go to wrong with Porsche or Elephant, but I can't speak to the comparative quality of any individual part. I'm curious to hear others opinions on Elephant parts vs Porsche/Prekom/Lemforder.

Keep in mind the elephant front bushing kit comes with install tools that make it a pretty easy job. You will need to improvise if you buy another brand of bushings.

Elephant @ $229
Porsche @ $ 88
Difference $141... That's a goodly bit of coin for the tools that I can turn out on my wood lathe and bore with a Forstner bit out of a block of wood in 20 minutes. I've gotta know if the rubber is that much better.

Thanks for weighing in. I think I should start another thread to ask about the parts, folks might have gotten tired of this one by now.

Id actually let you borrow mine. They literally sit in my work shop. Shoot me a pm when the time comes and I’ll drop them in the mail.

Wow, that is darned decent of you and I may just take you up on the offer... COD, of course! I'll let you know!

Its no problem at all! If you are doing turbo tie rods you are welcome to use my thin wrench as well.