Bitz - MS1 Extra - EDIS question

[wreckah]

Hi guys,

i've been running Tony's bitz kit for fuel for the last 2 years on my 1981 SC and it's great.
I have ignition issues now (distributor mount broke) and i've decided to go to EDIS ignition, with GSF toothed pulley coupled with the upgraded MS1 Extra box/software. (running MS1 extra to keep costs down for now...will go MS2 in the future)

I'm doing the wiring now, and i have a question:

the tach input on tony ms1 box is pin 24 (bue wire) and the MSextra EDIS manual tells me that it's pin 24 where the PIP signal should arrive...is the PIP signal also working as tach signal for the MS box? So simple swap out of pin 24 with the shielded cable from the EDIS controller?
(pin 36 for SAW signal is free, so no problem there.)

Any hardware mods to be done to the Bitz MS box for EDIS installation?

thanks,
Jan

[evan9eleven]

Hi Jan

I'm sure one of the experts will chime in here but just for fun I checked my wiring diagram for you. I'm not running Tony's kit, I have MS2 with EDIS.

On my setup Pin 1 from the EDIS module (PIP) goes to Pin 24 on the MS2 box. The tach signal is Pin 2 on the EDIS module. I have that connected directly to my tach (this connection can be found on the 14-pin engine connector in the rear left of the engine bay if you still have it, the tach wire is Pin 12 in that connector.)

SAW, as you already mentioned, is Pin 3 on the EDIS module and goes to Pin 36 on the MS2 box.)

The rest:

Pin 4 - not in use
Pin 5 - crank sensor negative
Pin 6 - crank sensor positive
Pin 7 - crank sensor shield
Pin 8 - +12V
Pin 9 - ground
Pins 10-12 - coils

Hope this helps!

[wreckah]

thanks Evan,

i got the hardware part almost understood The EDIS parts are mounted, still waiting on the GSF wheel.

Looking for options on the bitz kit MS box now...as i am totally not comfortable (read never done it, shaky hands and eyesight suboptimal ) soldering on a pcb board...so i asked prices for updating to MS1/Extra/EDIS or immediately upgrading to MS2. If this is too expensive, i'm going the new MS2 box route.

cheers, Jan

[evan9eleven]

In my opinion upgrading your ECU would be a good idea anyway. More features. If you're not comfortable with soldering then either you have to find a friend who is (and who will work for good Belgian beer) or just buy a complete box. I'm very skilled at soldering and I still bought a complete ECU, as I wanted to spend my time on other parts of the project then that. Good luck!

[scottrx7tt]

I originally had a bitz ECU. I quickly saw that the MS1 he is using is built to be a bare bones system. It’s not as easy as it seems to add spark to his MS1 box. It differs even from a standard MS1 box. Do yourself a favor and sell the bitz ECU and go microsquirt which will do everything you want it to do. It’s less than $400 with harness.

Originally Posted by wreckah

thanks Evan,

i got the hardware part almost understood The EDIS parts are mounted, still waiting on the GSF wheel.

Looking for options on the bitz kit MS box now...as i am totally not comfortable (read never done it, shaky hands and eyesight suboptimal ) soldering on a pcb board...so i asked prices for updating to MS1/Extra/EDIS or immediately upgrading to MS2. If this is too expensive, i'm going the new MS2 box route.

cheers, Jan

[wreckah]

Hi Scott, what is the main difference between microsquirt and MS2? I need basics only...fuel, ignition, EDIS, maybe stepper motor warmup control in the future and that's about it. No need for launch mode, shift lights, boost, nitrous, etc...
cheers, Jan

[scottrx7tt]

Microsquirt is the dimensions of a credit card but a little thicker. It is preassembled and weatherproof. It uses the ampseal harness connector like the MS3 pro. The biggest difference is it does not have a built in MAP sensor. You can use a 3 bar GM MAP sensor remotely. I like this better since you aren’t having to run a vacuum line all the way to the ecu. It does not have the built in ability to control idle with a stepper motor, but you can add that with an interface. I use a 3 wire ICV from a Porsche 964 and have no problems. It also only has 2 built in channels for ignition control. More can be added with repurposing other channels. With EDIS that does not matter anyways. I even used a flex fuel sensor with it. It’s a super nifty little ecu. BTW, I sold my bitz for $300 and upgraded to the microsquirt for roughly $100 more. It’s a no brainer

Originally Posted by wreckah

Hi Scott, what is the main difference between microsquirt and MS2? I need basics only...fuel, ignition, EDIS, maybe stepper motor warmup control in the future and that's about it. No need for launch mode, shift lights, boost, nitrous, etc...
cheers, Jan

[jpnovak]

Check your MS1 board carefully. In previous years Tony did not install all the necessary components to fully enable ignition support. I am not sure if this is the case for your board. But, if you connect ignition and get nothing you will have a starting point for troubleshooting.

I have installed several microsquirt systems. They work very well. You will have to rewire the car as the Ms1/Bitz harness will be completely different than microsquirt. Microsquirt has 90% of the capability of the MS2. The difference is in the number of extra feature ports on the ECU and corresponding wiring.

If you are going to MS2 you can mostly use the same harness. You will not have the Pin36 ignition output wire and will have to install and run this from the ECU to the EDIS controller.

Tony makes a great kit but has some limitations.

[trond]

I had no trouble using VR sensor and EDIS with the original tbitz ECU. I later upgraded firmware to MS1 Extra firmware (12x12 fuelling table) but was not strictly necessary. Give it a try, nothing to lose and not difficult at all

[wreckah]

hi trond, how would you run EDIS with an MS1 without ignition control?

[trond]

you use the EDIS module controlled by the MS. My MS1 box from the tbitz kit did that just fine. Was many years ago but it was not difficult to find good and easy to follow instructions here on the forum I believe it was. I'll look for the instructions and contact you if I find anything

[trond]

pip signal from EDIS controller goes from EDIS terminal 1 to MS terminal 24
saw signal goes from EDIS terminal 3 to MS terminal 36

If you send me your e-mail I will mail you the instructions

[wreckah]

Hi trond,

this is the reason i think that tony's stock box doesn't work with EDIS:
https://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#edis
you need to do a bit of work on the board.
also you need a firmware update to unlock the ignition, but that's the easy part.

but if you got it working without any mods, then please share

cheers, Jan

[wreckah]

ok, just ordered microsquirt unit + map sensor.

will sell the bitz box when i'm done with everything.

[wreckah]

got some parts in.

- goingsuperfast 36-1 toothed crank pulley arrived.



- install went relatively straightforward: had to spend maybe 30-40 seconds with my 200Nm electric impact gun on the pulley nut to break it loose, but it did finally. Also drilled an extra hole in the metal bracket that holds the motormount and muffler hanger to facilitate bolt removal.
- engine on TDC, swap the wheels, toothed wheel can only be installed one way, and in this case, the missing tooth is at TDC. 6 teeth before the sensor, as it should be. (sensor needs to 60° CCW from missing tooth)

[wreckah]

and then some electric works...

- finally took the time to remove the lamda brain wiring and all it's connectors. Basically the engine is now clean 'behind' the airbox. 12 pin connector fully removed. There is one red wire coming from the front fusebox to the passenger seat area, which is always live. I changed it to a fused/ignition o n position in the fusebox, and use it to power my aftermarket volt gauge. (If you ever had an alternator fail, you will never drive without volt gauge anymore).
- Gonna use the empty rubber plug/hole in the bottom rear seat for the new Microsquirt loom.
- took out the bitz MS1 loom and the Innovate LC1.Reused the holes for the shielded PIP/SAW wire and the AEM wideband wiring.

[wreckah]

(those are dog hairs that time of the year)

- made a little bracket right side of the centerconsole for volt gauge and wideband gauge.

- cleaned up the main engine loom (driverside rear 14 pin plug): took out the wires for the coils, CDI, etc...

- installed goingsuperfast distributor plug, very nice stuff.

- ordered all EDIS stuff new/reconditioned from Trigger-Wheels including the shielded wire, plug wires, etc...

- made brackets for EDIS coil pack (sits where distributor sits).

- mounted VR bracket, mounted sensor at 0,75mm from wheel.

- EDIS module sits where CDI used to sit

- put in extra little fusebox next to the EDIS module, to distribute power for injectors, MS, EDIS, AEM, etc...

- figured out the 'normal' logic for the fuel pump with the MS (Tony MS1 uses reverse logic with cutoff wire from CIS): basically this comes down to a normal 'open' fuel pump relay, which is directly controlled by one of the outputs from the microsquirt. No more RPM limiter cutoff and no more CIS cutoff. The microsquirt simply grounds the output when it wants the FP to work.

[wreckah]

trigger wheel, VR sensor, EDIS coilpack

[wreckah]

after reading the microsquirt hardware manual:

- all power comes from same source. (wideband, edis, ms, injectors, etc)
- EDIS and MS ground at the same spot. (driverside engine compartment, behind fuel filter)
- all other sensors etc...ground at the internal MS sensor ground, including the wideband unit.
- VR wire shield and PIP/SAW wire shield are both grounded onto one specific pin on the EDIS 6 module. Routed those wires away from especially the spark wires.
- tacho drive from pin 2 straight from EDIS 6 unit

- while i was in there: repaired fog light, repaired licence plate lights, and i have a working rear lid light now! (very cool, turn the little metal cylinder and let there be light )

- still waiting for microsquirt box and separate mapsensor. (removed vacuum line to the front passenger area, not needed anymore.)

[wreckah]

if i'm not mistaken, 120° and 240° is also marked on the GSF pulley, nice touch for valve jobs.

very first time for me to do a partial drop on my own (in my own garage). Easy peasy after changing the motormounts a couple of weeks ago. BTW: Loosen the four center motormount bar bolts a bit for easy install of the 2 main motormount bolts. Disconnected the shifter coupler and loosened the trans mounts a bit too, just for peace of mind when tilting.