Is thIs a set up for neutral or negative camber?

[elaai]

Hello,

I'd like to get as much negative camber on my front end as possible, as I'm doing more HPDE's than driving the car for regular road use.
1. How can I accomplish this, as a DIY project? Included is a picture of the passenger front side with the current (original) set-up.
2. How accurate can you set these up, just with the basic 3-bolt figuration that I have now?
3. I plan on using a wire box built around the car for precise measurements, but that's always after an adjustment.

Thank you to all.

[Knockdown]

The wire setup (I use hi viz fishing line) is good for setting toe. You will need a digital level to set the camber. You can’t depend on the position of the upper strut for an indication of camber and castor. There is some good info online for DIY car alignment, corner balancing pays good dividends as well but you need scales.

[T77911S]

you put in POSITIVE camber.
you can also mess up the caster.

get the car corner balanced then take it to an alignment shop and have them set it up for what you want and leave it alone.
you can get an alignment for about $80.

[elaai]

It does seem like it is set up for positive camber by the PO, just looking at it. I haven't touched it yet. So do you just loosen the 3 bolts? How do you put leverage on the strut to move it inwards?
I couldn't find anything online that shows the process. Any links are welcome.

[Driven97]

It's super simple. Loosen the bolts slightly and the strut mount can slide relative to the body. In = more camber, back = more caster. Jack the front end up if you want to be able to slide it around easier. You may have to knock off some of that tar to get full range.

[T77911S]

if you don't set it up right the car will not drive right. it can pull to one side, it can wear out the tires faster it can even make it dangerous to drive.

there are a lot of factors that go into how much camber you set it to. things like ride height, spring rates, sway bars. all this is usually figured out on a skid pad using tire temps or maybe viewing the wheel camber in a steady turn at max traction.

I just had my 930 on the track. factory settings for the suspension. I thought it was fine for now. had more over steer than I needed but it helped me learn how to deal it with it.

my advice is, and not knowing how good of a driver you are, take it and have it done at a shop, maybe add .5* if you really feel the need for more camber.
then work on your driving skills and learn what the handling issues are with the car.
even with all the over steer on my car my first thought was to fix the "car". my rational thought is fix "my driving" and in the mean time figure out what the car needs.
first thing is tire pressures. I don't know what issues your car has but what have you done about tire pressures. I was out in left field with pressures.
as tires heated up pressures went up, 5 to 8 psi. how much did my handling change from when I first went on track til the end due to tire temp change.

my point, how do you know you need more camber, how do you know your pressures are not the issue. what about sway bar changes or even Tbar changes to help.

this not an insult by any means but if you don't understand that looking at that pic looks like POS camber has been added so how do you know you need as much NEG camber as you can get.
you will loose some braking with a lot of NEG camber. the 911 braking is one of your advantages.

there is a philosophy I try to go by with engine mods, if it is not running right with mods, go back to the factory settings and get it to run right THEN make changes.
same here. start with factory settings.

one last thing. with the strut being pushed out that far I would be curious why. is the chassis bent or is it just set wrong. another reason to take it to a shop.

[obscene]

as someone who DIYs everything, a proper alignment done on a real rack with lasers and computers is something I'm absolutely willing to pay $100 for.

[T77911S]

$80 here

here is a pic of my car in the mountains.
factory settings.
its hard to tell for sure but optimum may be another.5 neg camber up front.
but that day I had some nice over steer helping the car turn in so I was happy with how it handled.
I had just put new tires on it and the tire place over inflated the tires. they were set to Porsche spec (about 44psi) which is too hi. I did not check them until I went to the track

[Driven97]

String alignments are usually more reliable and repeatable than lasers. Pro race teams use strings. Lasers are at the mercy of how in calibration the equipment is.

[WP0ZZZ]

Originally Posted by T77911S

get the car corner balanced then take it to an alignment shop and have them set it up for what you want and leave it alone.

Aligning after corner balancing can potentially throw away the corner balance, right?

[Superman]

It can change the corner balance, but I wouldn't expect a problem. I'd align it with that weight in the driver's seat.

[elaai]

Thanks for the feedback, guys, it is greatly appreciated. I still consider myself a newbie with only 7 day trackdays under my belt.

I don't have sway bars, so there's no adjusting that part. And the shocks are the basic green Bilsteins.

Why do I think I need more negative camber? I'm not sure that I do, but conversation with more experienced drivers seems to indicate that track driving requires more direct turn-in, versus saving tire life, and most lean towards more negative camber up front for that reason. I'm not looking so much to cut lap times, but I want to figure out how to make the car handle its best.

Actually, the car handles well on the track with the current set-up. Surprisingly, considering the positive camber. (I even had 2 instructor/ racecar drivers comment that the car felt like it had "work" done to improve the handling.) Very slight understeer, but that could be due to the street tires (Dunlop Direzza II). I have played around with the pressure, and it seems to have the best traction when I run those tires at 35 psi when hot. (28 cold, depending on ambient temp).

I just bought a temperature gauge to check the rubber right after a session, and that will tell me if I'm running the insides or outsides hotter, and the alignment will be adjusted from there. It will tell me right away how much my camber is off.

At that point, I will decide if I'll do the alignment myself, or pay a pro shop $450 for a string alignment . Expensive, but after attending a PCA workshop about alignment, I believe that the $80/$100 jobs are indeed using laser , and they could be off by a full degree from what I gathered, if not calibrated correctly.


But first, I'll get the R888R's on there, and go from there.

Again thanks for the help from all of you.

[T77911S]

the laser is WAAAAY more accurate.
the reason guys do the string is because it is not practical to keep taking a car to the shop for alignment, plus most do weight balance and alignment at the same time, don't waste your money on a string alignment. talk to the guy doing the alignment. tell him your are tracking it and if you have under steer tell him. take a look at the alignment settings before he adjusts anything.
for guys like you and me we aren't going to be doing a lot of suspension work so just take it to a shop for an $80 alignment, I did that on the 930 2 tire changes ago and I am still happy with it,
just fund a shop that has done a 911 before.

I would not go looking for better times out of the car until your driving is better. are you turning in too fast making the car under steer. when you get consistent and are getting all out of the car that you can then I would look at the car, but I would start with tires.

I take all my cars to the same guy now so I know him. I was talking to him one day and i leaned on the machine. the machine was accurate enough to show it.


I don't think alignment is going to upset weight to ever notice it. I have never had the 930 balanced and I cant tell.

[WP0ZZZ]

Originally Posted by elaai

I don't have sway bars

If you are tracking the car it may be a good idea to throw in some sway bars!

Originally Posted by elaai

Why do I think I need more negative camber? I'm not sure that I do, but conversation with more experienced drivers seems to indicate that track driving requires more direct turn-in

It's not only a matter of more direct turn-in. More negative camber can be useful to improve how both outside tires are presented to the ground when taking into account body roll. The tire thermometer will certainly help you to make an informed decision on cambers.

[TCracingCA]

People would go poor, if they paid for alignments to search for the perfect handling!

Basically unless you are racing, I see no need for adjustable parts! In street operation, even when performance driving, you want a compromising suspension set up! Maybe you tune to your preferred driving style, but then how often do you drive in that mode! So basically once you find what overall and all around makes you happy in most places, most of the time, you lock down your parts to an alignment! So no real need to have adjustable widgets, unless you will be tuning to a course or different envelope of driving completely!

Most are just bragging up the parts and the cars capability! Most of the time untested. If you align to 10/10th driving, best not to use it on the street!

Basically tire adhesion is the key! Before you do any fancy copying of spec alignments, with the so called hot parts, I would chalk up the side walls inside and out and go drive the crap out of it on a road that mimics where you generally play! I race track is the saddest place to test, as most are flat and throw nothing much that is unusual at you!

But tire footprint is the key! If the tire is rolling over and you are scrubbing chalk, how do you fix that. To go for maximum G, camber is the number 1 focus! Do you dial it toward the maximum and at peak adhesion, at peak turn velocity, maybe! So what are you looking for. Does it slide, prior to rolling the footprint! Does it roll the footprint, prior to sliding! The first could use some more poundage, either tire spring rate, or levered through a sway bar! Thus add and repeat! The latter condition more complicated, or in the first you reverse things finally! Thus are you getting deflection, is the suspension components or the lack of camber causing the tire roll! I like solid bushings, heim(spherical), as that can eliminate a factor! If you are chasing bushing deflection, then it can be hard to gauge your alignment benefit or ideal.

Thus when I think I have the tires figured how (how much performance can you get from them and from what camber), other than lack of practical street operation, am I happy! I next go to weight transfer and how much dive or rear squat! I don't perfect corner balance anything, as I might want more spring rate to counter dive or squat, or even in a particular corner, like the Laguna Seca corkscrew! I technically want the best suspension at the limit of my performance envelope! Also track or course or your happy place, is important. Generally not too much can pass me in a turn, so my focus is braking into apex, and acceleration related to apex! But then I do not want to throw away time during the turns either! Therefore important tuning considerations for solo time running vice competition with other cars! I align totally different for the two differing experiences. Thus solo running, the turns are important, but then if opening up onto a long straight and the terminal velocity improves my lap times, then I might tune to acceleration from the last apex!

My camberthoughts and personal preferences, are geared toward car stability! The longer the wheelbase, the better it goes straight, but the harder it is to turn! And vice versa. Generally what ever camber gives me the best feeling overall on any course is where I generally go, as I found I would rather give away some ultimate sheer speed, for security! I feel I am faster longer and in more places, more forgiveness, with stability! And caster can help counter weight transfer some.

So on a tight course you want better turning, turn in, etc. so generally that is a shorter effective wheelbase. Thus is the car still safe at terminal velocity. Is it tracking straight to not throw away lap time! Shorter wheelbase can mess with weight transfer and proper corner weighting.

This is getting long, so could go further, but I don't feel like authoring a book here, so to toe we go! I start with a full study of two things, bump and Ackerman! I want to see the suspension travel through its range and the steering also, travel thru it's range! Then how do I like to turn the darn thing, and can it be kept or pointed in a straight line, or accurately into a turn with precision, balance poise, etc. I generally like to control the steer in and the steer out of any turn while racing, so I actually prefer zero toe. A slight toe in, helps the car help you to search for straight! So why do I bring in Ackerman, I do as most street alignments car type to car type have a spec that marries the Ackerman engineered in to that toe! Therefore varying the toe from design, can cause a tire scrub! But then in racing, when is a tire not scrubbing! And like I said, who can pass me in the middle of a turn, where follow the leader is the norm! Thus my focus is corner entry placement at speed, under braking!

If I ever push down an unknown road, I late apex! So I dial in suspension for acceleration out of turns, or to pick back up velocity, tempo! On a race track, the hairiest moments are turn in under braking, so I try to dial that as my advantage! How dare someone to think that they can follow me into a turn so hot! No no no no!

Thus wrote a lot to think about, getting tired of typing for now!

Let me post to not lose this!

[WP0ZZZ]

TCracingCA is a poet!!! Yoda style.

[TCracingCA]

Originally Posted by WP0ZZZ

TCracingCA is a poet!!! Yoda style.

I wish! As I have crashed a lot of stuff!

[TCracingCA]

Based on a very few having my direct email, I was asked to elaborate some on ackermann and what the hell!

The simplest explanation why I even worry about the factory design is that my Corvettes and my brothers Porsches do scrub tires a lot in like the Pro Solo type parking lot cone racing slaloms. The cars were designed more for road/street and less for slalom and full on high speed tracking! Therefore have things at least on my Corvettes (used to have a Porsche, but still drive and play with the ones in the family) that move the tie rods in or out related to the ball joint! Basically angle out or in the rods to increase ackermann or decrease it! For auto cross, would like to tune out some slower speed scrub (more ackermann), and for race tracks the opposite (less ackermann if the track warrants it)!

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by obscene

as someone who DIYs everything, a proper alignment done on a real rack with lasers and computers is something I'm absolutely willing to pay $100 for.

Not on a 911 with corner balance. 73 Toyota maybe 911, not a chance. Lasers serve the same function as strings only cooler. The time consumer is the physical adjustment process. Putting the car on scales and off. The average alignment shop won’t even have the thin wrenches to adjust the spring plates. The 911 is wonderfully adjustable, which also means as much as you can optimize the geometry for the type of driving you want to do, it also means you can misadjust it to the scary zone. 911s are not for the cheap or lazy owners, if you want it your way, it will cost in either cash or sweat.
I have done both my 911s and own scales and plenty of string.

[TCracingCA]

Camber is a funny animal!

If you have 165 tires, why bother! If you have 345 tires, it can get interesting!

So with truly wide tires, do you rock the tire up on edge, to prepare for a helluva turn where you hope it flattens out and gets footprint?

Like I said above, camber is dependent or dictated as to footprint! Rocking a 345, can make for a hairy ride, where it is tracking in imperfections, wanting to wander, etc.

If you have a stiff suspension that isn't rolling up and traveling in an arc, that will keep you flat more than going soft. But then you are on the tires capability of adhesion! To better adhesion, go heavier springs, but heavier springs are harsh for the street. Thus why sway bars are so great! You can have a softer spring rate, and when cornering, the bar exerts downward force, but with penalty to the inner set of tires keeping contact. There is a lot to be considered, in keeping a rapid tracking ability with your tires to the road! If the surface is rough, I soften the spring shock, and if flat and smooth, I go heavier!

An general alignment to street specs (stock) is what the Marque engineers though would be a good riding and handling car! But now you want to hot rod it!