Cost & list of parts to rebuild a 3.0L

[VFR750]

Originally Posted by euro911sc

Wow... that's a S-ton of $$.... If you don't have to have the new engine tomorrow you can get a lot of this stuff on the Classified forum or eBay. I did mine about 10 years ago for under $4k, but it took me over a year to collect all the right parts for cheap. Just depends on your schedule and resources.


-Michael

One cannot overlook resources. The extent of a rebuild and the level of restoration to new does have a huge impact on cost. And I can sympathize with budget based rebuilds and honestly agree with them, the caveat is you cannot expect like new reliability.

I wanted an engine that could go for ten plus years and survive high rpms and track day abuse with expected reliability of the original factory build. $12k was the price.

Only a very few parts added a lot of cost. Tensioners, chains cam drive parts added up pretty fast.

$800 for the crankshaft was a “bargain” compared to finding a new or otherwise refurbished crankshaft. The weld repair also solved a ticking problem related to the cam gear being loose on the shaft.

P&C will remain the single biggest hit. I was going to reuse mine, but the ring lands were was too wide.

Refurbished Rods bearings and Raceware bolts were over $1k

Those four things are over $4k alone.

I understand how you could keep the cost down with the classifieds, but are you getting already used parts? Is that in line with your rebuild goals? Your choice. And that is perfectly fine with me. No judgment whatsoever. I just wanted folks to know what a full R&R build really costs.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

And not all engines are priced the same. If you get a set of 2.7 RS spec Mahles like I did, they are closer to $4000.

That was about the going price for Mahle from EBS back in the later 90's. I am getting older though and memory not so sharp. Possibly low three thousands?

I went fat and assumed the priced was around $5k now for new and backed off roughly $2k for OP's spend on P&C. That's where the $3k came from. Just an incremental spend. Not stand alone.

[jjeffries]

One lesson I learned in my rebuild (82 SC, 183k miles I bought with engine out/apart due to started, then stalled broken head stud job): that Alusils are not the disposable junk many would have us believe. I was on a budget but wanted to do mine right, so having identified they were Kolbenschmidt Alusils, figured I'd need to send them out for Nikasil conversion and, say JE pistons, or buy a Mahle set. I'd read the lengthy thread about this and posted something that caught Tom Butler's eye (aka Tom's Rennshop). He measured my cylinders (they were in spec), and the pistons and rings (also in spec). He did a special/light honing process. I've put 10K miles on the engine since rebuilding and she's a beauty. This allowed me to get the car done and on the road a year sooner than I anticipated (not having to spend that extra $4K). Now, I'm not presenting this in confilxt to anything VFR is saying, rather it's just as a service to anyone rebuilding an Alusil-equipped engine who finds this excellent thread: your Alusils aren't necessarily junk. John

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

That was about the going price for Mahle from EBS back in the later 90's. I am getting older though and memory not so sharp. Possibly low three thousands?

I went fat and assumed the priced was around $5k now for new and backed off roughly $2k for OP's spend on P&C. That's where the $3k came from. Just an incremental spend. Not stand alone.

I paid that 6 months ago.

[VFR750]

I’ve known Tom for a long time and have visited his Rennshop.

He inspected my KS cylinders and they were ok. Unfortunately the pistons weren’t in spec. So they were not salvageable.

At first I bought a set of used mahle cylinders from Tom, and was going to get a set of JE pistons, but it turned out it was cheaper to go the EBS route, and I returned the cylinders back to him.

So it is an option to reused the KS p&cs.

[VFR750]

2.7 Mahle are much cheaper. Not sure why.

[Kraftwerk]

Thanks Mike, I often wondered the answer to that question. Excellent spreadsheet. Suppose I should create a 'rainy day fund' for the eventuality of a rebuild.

[Superman]

Do you even know whether you have Alusil or Nikasil cylinders? My Alusils measured .0015 or less wear, well within factory wear spec of .0060. I cleaned them up REAL good and rings seated immediately. Nikasils can be cleaned, honed and reused. According to my understanding. These cylinders do not need to be replated. That is one thing I noticed about the invoice.

There other is crankshaft work. These crankshafts should not be messed with much. Minor repair, perhaps. But welding, grinding, polishing....generally not recommended. Find a good used crank. Again, according to my understanding.

Yes, a P&C set has been $3K+ for many years.

Also, if the engine will be apart, then be SURE to send the parts to your machine shop for inspection. Rods especially, of course. Rockers and shafts. And make sure the oil galleries are clean. Remove and clean the squirter rods in the cam housing.

[VFR750]

Armondo at CCR did the weld repair. He is well known as an excellent welder.

He welded the keyway and shaft surface where the cam drive gear fits. No significant torque there. So there are places where welding is ok.

Before I bought my car, I got Wayne’s rebuilding book for Christmas 2003. Rebuilding planning started then. I started buying parts and tool about 4 years before so the initial financial hit was spread out.

[VFR750]

Yes Kobellschimdt (KS) alusil cylinders can be reused.

Finding good pistons can be a challenge, they have unique coating.. And finding new piston rings is very difficult. You can’t put Mahle or aftermarket pistons.

Hence the market was created for nikasil plating the KS cylinders.

[Geronimo]

You can get 3.1 P&C from a forum member here for under $3K I think.. as another option...

I still find Porsche engine costs to be criminal for the performance delivered.

[tirwin]

Wow! Great thread.

I'd love to do a 3.2SS one day and do an EFI/ITB conversion. My guess is that would easily add another $8k + dyno time for tuning. I have no justifiable reason to do it right now. And the cost is disillusioning.

One thing is apparent from reading older rebuild threads and from looking at the prices quoted in Wayne's book... it will always be cheaper today than it will be tomorrow.

[Geronimo]

Can you use stock 3.2L cylinders and then buy pistons to help balance out the costs a bit? I image a good set of used 3.2L cylinders might save a good bit over a full set of P&C's for a 3.2ss build?

[kent olsen]

Mike Bruns from Florida helped me rebuild the 3.0L in my car years ago when he worked for J&B Racing. We built it to turn 8500 rpm and had some racing tricks added for longevity. My cam is special and so I only turn it 7200 rpm but I did have a missed shift years ago that I saw 8000 rpm with no problems. Mike ran it on the dyno 34 times for break-in and tuning single and twin plugs. My cost then was about $12k also. I sold a few parts including the 2.7L.

[QueWhy]

Originally Posted by Geronimo

You can get 3.1 P&C from a forum member here for under $3K I think.. as another option...

I still find Porsche engine costs to be criminal for the performance delivered.

I’m using the OPs spreadsheet as a starting point with the the Supertec 3.1L kit in mind. There are some places I’ll be able to save money and there are still a lot of unknowns without getting the engine apart, it’s going to be expensive regardless.

Originally Posted by Geronimo

Can you use stock 3.2L cylinders and then buy pistons to help balance out the costs a bit? I image a good set of used 3.2L cylinders might save a good bit over a full set of P&C's for a 3.2ss build?

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but the 3.0sc and 3.2 carerra both use 95mm p&c, the later is just a longer stroke. I know some people bore out the 95mm carerra cylinders to 98mm for a 3.2ss. It’s my understanding the SC cylinders are unsuitable for this practice, this seems to be the most cost effective approach to a 3.2ss.

[Geronimo]

yea, I just have such a hard time with Porsche engine build costs, in just about any other brand that isn't Italian the power would be double and the cost would be a third. lol

It makes me want to run toward the nearest 90's Japanese car.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by Geronimo

yea, I just have such a hard time with Porsche engine build costs, in just about any other brand that isn't Italian the power would be double and the cost would be a third. lol

It makes me want to run toward the nearest 90's Japanese car.

Wait till you rebuild a transmission........

[Geronimo]

Been there done that... I hate nothing more than a Porsche 915 transmission. Really wish I had bought that R32 now. lol

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by Geronimo

yea, I just have such a hard time with Porsche engine build costs, in just about any other brand that isn't Italian the power would be double and the cost would be a third. lol

It makes me want to run toward the nearest 90's Japanese car.

LOL. Over the past 35 years I considered selling my 911 and buying a *cough* honda or toyota. Then I realized that it would take more than one honda or toyota to last me over that period of time.

When is the last time you saw a '70s or '80s car being driven regularly?

[Geronimo]

yea, but for the price of my 911 I could have several JDM cars that are faster and equally fun.

Heck i'm about to buy a 20 year old STi (that is cheaper then my 915 rebuild) just so I can have a fast car. lol

I was looking at old AE86 Corolla's, used BEAMS engines 207hp, 11.5:1, 8000rpm, titanium valves... only 1200.00 including the six speed!!!.... while a used Porsche engine is $10-18K.... it's just crazy.

The Costs for Porsche performance is just out of pace with reality, if my cars value hadn't dropped like a rock since I bought it I would get out.